1780 Maajid Nawaz

The Joe Rogan Experience.

Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by Night, all day.

Joe Rogan

It's been Oliver Stone's thing. I mean, he's been following that story. He's been chasing it down. We talked about on the podcast that his film JFK was essentially 30 years after the assassination. And then this documentary that he just released his 30 years after his film. So he's been chasing this thing. Now it's very good. It's very good

Maajid Nawaz

Chase, I should catch the documentary I've seen I've seen the film I should watch

Joe Rogan

It's on Showtime

Maajid Nawaz

I mean generally where we're life, right? We're a composer, so generally the assassination of President's. It's something which

Joe Rogan

Yeah, yeah

Maajid Nawaz

You know I've been in prison with people that assassinated, said that, and it's just yeah, these sorts of this intrigue

Joe Rogan

Oh, really

Maajid Nawaz

The top and the plots

I actually befriended them

I've got a copy of the of the Quran at home signed by one of them as a gift to me about parting gift from from prison

But the kind of intrigue when you get to that level of intrigue at the top, nothing is ever what it seems, man

Joe Rogan

I can only imagine

Maajid Nawaz

It seems you know

It's got to

Joe Rogan

Be a stressful way to live

Imagine being

A world leader?

Yeah, of course

And all the the **** you're dealing with and potential assassination and coup plots and

Maajid Nawaz

And and part of how you operate has to be one thing, one face you present to the public, and another thing is what you're really actually doing, because you've got all these other people, especially today with the nature of information wars, attempting to subvert what you're trying to do

Based on your over actions and so you have to truly hide what you're really actually up to, you know it's it's difficult to navigate that terrain

Joe Rogan

Well, not only that, but when you operate like that, if you're constantly operating in this sort of deception vein

Like it's got to be hard to know what's true and what's not true because you're kind of you're full of **** when you're full of **** I think it becomes more difficult to recognize what's true and what's not true

Maajid Nawaz

And you don't get to that position unless you're full

Of **** in

The first place you have to

Joe Rogan

So you compromise like they don't let you in, like when you find out politicians that aren't like $200,000 a year and you find out they're worth $200 million

How did that happen?

And you're like what is?

Going on, well, I'll tell you what's going

Maajid Nawaz

On just look to Pelosi

Right, yeah, well that was

Joe Rogan

I talking about

Maajid Nawaz

She's making a lot of money

It's wild, but it's not from

Joe Rogan

Her salary

Well, the my favorite thing was when she was confronted and they asked her a question about trading about whether or not you know people that are in Congress and what have you should be able to trade

And she takes a sip water 'cause she knows this is going to

Maajid Nawaz

Be a big one

Yeah, you know

And well, listen there was a there was a on Twitter

And we can probably return to the question of tech and and speech and censorship

But there was this account called Pelosi Tracker

I don't know if you ever saw it now

It's been taken down

It was tracking all her traits

I was following the damn thing

I was really interested to learn from

It you know it's good to

Joe Rogan

Invest, but she's investing in

Maajid Nawaz

They took what?

Because that's what they say, right?

You watch you watch her moves and you

Know you're gonna make money

Why would they take it? It got taken down. There was 2/2 accounts. One was called Epstein tracker and it was following the GILLAIN trial

Was it gillain tracker Epstein track?

The other was Pelosi tracker

Both got taken

Joe Rogan

Down why?

Maajid Nawaz

Who knows, man?

That's why does Twitter do anything?

Joe Rogan

Man, it's so confusing now

I mean, Twitter used to be like you would remember the old days when you would just say like at mojid

I'm having a pizza with friends like you know, like you would do those things like that's what people would do like off to the movies with my buddies

Maajid Nawaz

It's a weapon now, yeah, it's it's a weapon in a hybrid war that we're in

Unfortunately, we're in a hybrid war and one of the main fronts in that war is is information over the definition of reality, and in that context

If you know whoever defines reality gets to win and Twitter is as a result in that context, it's a weapon that is being used to define reality by molding peoples minds

Joe Rogan

That's fascinating to put it that way, and what's interesting is the people that are being molded are fiercely defending the rights of those people to mold them

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, that's the best way

Joe Rogan

To do it right, well, the the the people who are being molded

Yeah, the people that are a part of the hive mind

Maajid Nawaz

It's the best way to do it

I mean look if I wanted to enslave you, I don't think I'd have much of much of a chance physically, right?

I mean I I

I don't know about you, but I I've only been training for about couple of years

Yeah, so the way to do it would be for me to convince you

Yes, use a Jedi mind trick

Joe Rogan

Yes, these are not the drones you're

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah right, yeah

Joe Rogan

Looking for droids

Maajid Nawaz

So you voluntarily follow me

That's the way to do it

And if you're a minority in power, you're always going to be

A minority, if you're in power

Joe Rogan

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I want it but when we get this conversation started and what I want to do for people that don't know you, I want to go into your past and you know and your book and who you were in a

You know, in the previous life and who you are now and why you're recognizing this and you're so fiercely

Resisting this **** more than a lot of

Because a lot of people are scared of blowback like they see what's going on with governments and with lockdowns and all these things in there

They're scared of the blowback, and so they're kind of keeping their mouth shut, but you're not doing that at all

And I think a lot of that has to do with your past

Maajid Nawaz

I've seen was yeah so

Joe Rogan

Will you just give us a like a rundown of what happened with you?

Maajid Nawaz

So I

For your listeners, I was born in Essex, UK and

I had a very normal

Childhood until I kind of hit my teenage years

From my teenagers, we were the first generation by the way of Muslims born and raised in the West. My parents were immigrants and why that why that's relevant is we my age group. Now I'm 44. We had to navigate a place for Muslims in the West

Prior to that point, of course

That hadn't been done, and there's a long history with sort of this whole Huntington model of a clash of civilizations, which is a bit caricature, but there's a long history sort of between Islam and the West and and relations and and mixing some of it's good, a lot of it involved

War with the Crusades that we're now born and raised in the West as British citizens

Now to put that into context, in Europe

If you look with the US and you have minority communities, a lot of the

Room for improvement exists in, say, African American communities, right in Europe

The equivalent is with Muslim communities

Wherever you go, whether it's in Britain with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, whether it's in France with the North Africans in Morocco

In the Netherlands with N Africans, Moroccans in Germany with Turks

Across Europe, generally Albanians, who also majority happen to be Muslim but more cultural

Not really that religious, but across Europe the the largest minorities are Muslims and so that same question about

Integration cooperation

Equal opportunities social mobility

Whereas in the US it applies specifically I don't know, say for example with African Americans and Mexican Americans or Latino Americans in the in the in Europe generally and in the UK

It's a Muslim question

So when I began sort of hit my teenage years, we experienced a lot of tension around that and there was a lot of racist violence that I experienced growing up with some sort of neo-Nazi racist violence

And when I say violence, I'm talking severe severe shift like machete and hammer attacks, screwdriver attacks

I've had to watch friends of mine get stabbed

Before the age of 16, many of my friends stabbed

We had running street fights with these guys, knives, machetes, everything

I mean it was like a it was really bad

One particular occasion this guy tried to help me

I was surrounded by a group of them and they all had their big kebab knives

I thought I was going to die man and then this this guy was just walking past random guy walking past

He saw that I was surrounded by these guys and he tried to step in to defend me

And what they did is they asked 15 years old they

Held me back and they basically started stabbing this guy all over his

Body force me to watch it and they called him a pokie lover

Oh, and the idea was that he's a traitor to his skin for trying to defend me

So of course I became very angry

Yeah, but by the way, I I met that guy about two years ago he lived

She lived

Maajid Nawaz

He had a punctured lung

Turns out he was with the army

He's a hero for me man

He's a hero and I put out a public appeal to see if I could get reunited with him

He wants to stay anonymous, but I met him

And he's still alive, and he's still still lives in the in my hometown and he's still, you know, local to the area in my home county

But that made me very angry at the same time, if you want to think back the time frame we're talking about the early 90s, the genocide in Bosnia was happening

The Bosnians are also Muslim

And so we we felt that that could come to Britain

We felt very isolated

We felt very

Very vulnerable, and so we were looking in that context for some form of belonging

Feeling rejected from those from society around us

The guys that the guys that attacked us by the way they would boast about having connections and links with the police

And it turns out to be the case that that there was a problem in those days with the police

There's a famous case of the murder of Stephen Lawrence in the UK

Who was stabbed to death in a similar way while waiting at a bus stop and his killers were never brought to justice for over 20 years?

And there was a government inquiry commissioned into that

It's called the MacPherson inquiry, and it eventually became famous for coining that phrase institutional racism

And it was talking about how police were not looking into these sorts of crimes, so nobody was ever brought to justice for what happened to us

And everything I described was a year before Stephen Lawrence was murdered, but that became the pivotal case in the UK

It became like a George Floyd might because of huge, except he wasn't that, you know, I know

George Floyd had some background this guy had

He was clean

It's just a a young kid, no background

He just set a bus stop

So in that context, we became very angry and we began looking for belonging and identity outside of the mainstream that we felt rejected us, and so at the age of 16, why that's all relevant?

I ended up joining a revolutionary Islamist organization I didn't trust society

I didn't trust authority

I didn't trust the West generally

Looking at the genocide in Bosnia with the UN troops, one of the

The most searing memories for me was that Srebrenica, where the UN, the Dutch, UN soldiers were standing by as as the Bosnian Muslims were killed and putting that mass grave and they didn't have the mandate to intervene

So we really didn't trust institutions to defend us, whether it was foreign policy or even domestic at home

So at the age of 16, I joined this group called has Barrier

Which means the party of liberation

And it's in a nutshell

The before al Qaeda and definitely before ISIS

This was an organization that wanted a caliphate globally around the world

But instead of using terrorism in the conventional means, we understand it today

Blowing things up, our purpose, our method was to recruit army officers in Muslim majority countries and instigate military coups

To try and come to power

I joined this group at 16

And I spent about a decade

Well yeah, more just over a decade in this organization, I rose to the leadership in the UK

I set the group I exported it from the UK and set it up in Pakistan

It was part of the first move in the way that went from Britain to Pakistan to found the group there in that

In that vein, I ended up recruiting some army officers there

In Pakistan as well, can I ask you how that happens?

Joe Rogan

How do you?

How do you make contact with the army officers and how could you recruit them and like how?

Maajid Nawaz

Would you go about doing that?


Maajid Nawaz

Well, there's this Military Academy in the UK that globally countries send their officers to for

The training it's called Sandhurst

And we would because of the Pakistani community

We knew friends who had relatives or whatever that would be coming from Pakistan to study at Sandhurst

It's a, it's a

It's like an officers training Academy and then through relatives

You know you get begin conversation

And then really the rest of it is what's what's really important is being trained

In in techniques as to how to convince people of your aim

Joe Rogan

So like what he what would?

Maajid Nawaz

So a lot of that involves around first, so we used to say that you have to first destroy before you build, and so whatever you believe in at the moment has to be removed before we can replace it with our ideological framework

And so if you believe in, say, you're coming from Pakistan, a thing you're going to generally

Obviously there are exceptions, but you're going to have

Some form of belief in the international order in the international system in democratic governance

Because Pakistan

For most of its history has been a democracy

And so we'd have to pick apart those ideas first by focusing on the floors and the holes in these sites

So take the international community. Very easy to do if you've got the UN standing by while a genocide is going on in Bosnia and you're speaking to a Muslim who's from a country that was founded to protect Muslims after partition in 1947. And you know, just say look, you think

Do you think these institutions are going to protect you when you see what happened in Bosnia, so the failure of the international order or something that we could poke to try and make that you know, make those fissures bigger?

And so a lot of it is, and we'll get back to this by the way, with the debate today with COVID, but a lot of it was a psychological assault on assumptions that people took for granted and then you pick those apart

Through discussion, you demonstrate how how those assumptions don't stand up to the real world, and they require a solution

That solution has to be something that fits what the person wants

Now, if you're speaking to a Muslim, it's pretty much a given that they don't want genocide against Muslims

So we'd go back, say, take the example of Bosnia

We talk about

Well, how do you think Muslims who are blonde hair blue-eyed even came to Bosnia in the first place?

Well, it actually it was through the caliphate, which is true

It was the Ottomans had to, you know, have the leadership of the Muslim world at the time

Modern day Turkey

And the Ottomans used to provide protection in that area. Now that last vestige of a caliphate was destroyed in 1924 after World War One

And that's when the Muslims who are in modern day Bosnia are lost

That protection of the Ottoman Empire

So if you're speaking to somebody that knows his history, which we were trained in, so remember I'm 16, I shouldn't be having conversations about the Ottoman Empire in Bosnia, unless somehow I've been, you know, I've been involved in a form of a a process of a combination of education and indoctrination, and it's how to use that education for the purposes of indoctrination that we were trained in

So you kind of have those discussions and we ended up recruiting people

As I say, I exported it to Denmark, then to Pakistan

I was on the leadership in the UK eventually

I went to Egypt to try and reestablish the group there in Egypt, Egypt

At the time was under Hosni Mubarak

I was doing a degree at the School of Oriental and African Studies

It's so as part of the University of London

It's considered one of the leading

Kind of radical, left wing colleges in the UK, but for Arabic it's actually one of the best in the in in the world

And I was doing law in Arabic and so I see

And for my Arabic degree I needed to go to an Arab country for my language

Here my third year, so I chose Egypt

So that was my ostensible reason for going to Egypt, but actually, while I was there, I began recruiting again for my organization

The difference between Egypt and Pakistan, Denmark and Britain

Is Egypt a dictatorship still is till today?

Whereas Pakistan wasn't

And course, Denmark and Britain won so

In Egypt, where I tried to stop, you know, start building these cells, recruit people to my organization

I arrived one day before the 9/11 attacks, not knowing of course that was happening

And so that that changed the security paradigm for the whole world

If you remember Bush saying that sorry Tony Blair saying the rules of the game have changed

Once 911 happened, people like us who were not

You know, terrorists in the kind of bombing sense, right?

So I, that's just the difference between, say, an Islamist to briefly define it

Somebody who wants to impose a version of Islam over society as opposed to just the religion of Islam, which is a faith and Islamist I define and people can differ with these definitions

Just my definition

Someone who wants to impose a version of Islam over society

Impose a dogma, yeah

But on methods on means were not violent, they were more like infiltrating the government and trying to take over from within

But once the 9/11 attacks happened, the security kind of rules of the game changed. The Egyptian regime came after us

There was a bit of a a cat and mouse chase

I was on the run for a bit in Egypt, but eventually they raided my house at sort of roughly 3:00 AM and they had to machine guns and grenades and they came in and I was awake at the time because I had

I was married and I had a one year old

I have a one year old

He was one at the time I I have a son from that previous marriage

And I was trying to put him back to sleep

They ripped him from my arms

They blindfolded me

And they put me in this van

Took me to that state security headquarters and the a lot of I can go into some of the detail, but a lot of atrocities then happen to us

I mean we

Were we went through quite a horrific experience in the dungeons of Egypt and the first thing they did is they took me up in Alexandria where I was living

They took me up to the top of a building blindfolding and stood me on the edge of the of the roof

To try and make me believe that they're going to push me over, I had to stand there very still to see if it, you know

It takes a bit of

Yeah, it takes a bit out

You don't use it

You can't see anything

It's standing at the and I could feel the wind around me, but that was just a warm up

Joe Rogan

Oh Jesus

Maajid Nawaz

That was for the purpose of softening me up so that I could

I would believe that they're prepared to do anything so that I'm ready to talk

So once they put me there then they took me down and they took me into an up to see an officer

See an officer

I was blindfolded but to to be confronted by an intelligence officer from the state security

And he asked me my story and we were trained to say one thing in that context, as Islamist revolutionaries and the answer was very straightforward, and it's what I said, I I was

Very programmed right?

So I said my name is Majid Nawaz and I'm a member of his media from Britain

And that's all I got to say to you

And that's what I said to the officer

So he laughed and

He he's heard that before from us there's a long history of this group in Egypt

So he said, alright, let's see what you do next and then they put us in this van

Drove us through the desert, still blindfolded

Took us to a Cairo

And they took us to the this building called Algiers

It has a dollar which is the headquarters of the state security internal state security for all of Egypt took us underground

And this is where the real nightmare began

Tired our hands behind our backs with rags

We were bodies piled on top of each other on the floor

In this I don't know what it was

I call it a dungeon 'cause it was underground in a basement like structure

And then that's when the screaming began. They they gave us all numbers. I was 42

And from from

From that day when we were at

This is now I think day 2

From that evening they began A roll call

We weren't allowed to sleep

By the way, if we slept and we didn't answer our name, we were beaten

And they bit they went through the numbers in chronological order

And so I would hear number one

He was called up, taken into a separate room, tortured, and we would hear his screams electrocuted

And then they'd say call number 2

Number one is brought back, collapses in his spot, brings the number 2 #3 and they go through. Everyone is being tortured 1 by 1

And of course I have to wait my turn 42 so I have heard 41 other people so #41 is next to me

Is this is a is a moment I write about in radical, which is the story of all of this

It's My Autobiography is called radical

And this poor guy

I just don't know who he is till this day

But he turned to me and he was crying 'cause he's he's turn was next

And he said help me

I don't know what to do

I mean I'm in the same position so I just read some passages of the answer him

There's a there's

A passage about a boy because Muslims believe everything you know in the old and New Testament

We believe that's from the same tradition, the same God and a bit like the best way I can explain it for an American or a world audience

Just as Christianity views Judaism as part of their tradition, Islam views Christianity and Judaism as part of our tradition, right?

So there's a story in the Quran about a Christian boy who tried to proselytize for monotheism

And this Pagan king didn't like him, and he put him in a ditch and he burned everyone in this ditch

It's called Surat al Burooj

The story of the trench

And it's about suffering in the face of truth

And so I just started reciting this passage to him whatsoever till Brujah started reciting this passage

And there's a very specific way of reciting the Quran

It soothed him all

I remember him saying to me was you're a good man, thank you

And then he was taking his number was called

He was taken

And then eventually he was he collapsed, he was brought back and he was just unconscious and my number was called

So I had to walk and imagine that I had to walk towards this

The room where they're going to torture me and

The guy said, right, you're going to have to speak

And I still had my hands tide behind my my back

But I had managed to get the rags loose and I'm not the kind of guy that's gonna

I mean I

I honestly I at that moment I decided I'd rather die than be humiliated in this way and and then also then

Telling him a story about my friends, you know

So because my hands were loose, so I honestly I decided I'd rather just attack the guy and they're gonna have to shoot me dead

But then something unexpected happened

There were four of us from the UK

Instead of electrocuting me, he electrocuted my friend who was also in the group with me

Who's from London who was also in Egypt

They tortured him in front of me

And then he said, right your turn, you have to speak

Tell us why you're here

Tell us what you're doing here in Egypt

I gave him the answer, I I the stock answer I gave in Alexandria

So my name is Majid Nawaz

I'm a member of his Victoria from Britain

Do what you want

And by this time my hands were loose, but I was still pretending they were still tired and honestly jolyne like people

Don't think this is this is barbaric, but you haven't been in that situation to know what happens to the brain

But I took the view that if they touched me, I'm just going to bite down on his neck and they're gonna have to shoot me dead

'cause I was just going to basically just

Just attack the guy with my teeth

That's all I had

Lucky for me

For whatever reason, he said, right? I'm going to give you 24 more hours to think

About your answer

Go back to

Your spot and

If you if you don't answer, you saw what we did to your friend and we're going to do that to you now

This is the 4th day, so they took me back to my place

And then

I was kind of there was some hints that

They were going

To rape me or whatever they're talking about

Oh, this one looks, you know, talking about physical features and maybe we should treat it in a different way

And then I think they were trying to scare me with that too

And they they have, by the way, they they were raped

They were ****** whipped wives in there they were torturing children in front of their fathers

Just to try and force the father to confess

I mean, there's just imagine no rules

Yeah, anything is possible and nobody is ever going to find out about it

Now lucky for me, that was the 4th day. The British Consul is meant to make contact within 48 hours, so four days they're already late

But however they managed to do on that 4th day because I I was a student of Arabic and I could understand

I heard a phone ring in the dungeon and one of the officers picked the phone up and I could hear him speaking in Arabic and he said, yeah, the foreigners are here with me

And then I could hear him say yes, Sir, yes Sir

OK, alright today Sir

And that's when I realized that you know what we might be taking out of here

So I it was it was the case

On the that evening

So I was due to go back to that officer and who'd given me the warning

But before I was due back, they sent some pickup truck military truck to come and collect the four of us that were from the UK and they took us from there and I I imagine the ambassador was making a big stink

They took us from there and instead took us to a prison called Masla or Prison, which is where I eventually met the assassins of unanswered

At the former Prime Minister former president

And they put us into solitary confinement for 3 1/2 months, roughly

The Egyptians we left behind there the Egyptians continued

They continued treating them in a really brutal way

Those that were arrested with us

But we were then put into solitary confinement

I was then, as a result, I was never electrocuted my friend, as I said, was in front of me

He was in the next cell to me

And after so that cell that we were put into solitary confinement, there was not, there was no toilet, there was no bed, bedding or any

It's just a bare concrete cell

We had to

Forgive me, but you know, I suppose this is your show

We can speak like this, but we had to **** on the floor

We had to **** on the floor and then they'd come 15 minutes break

They come with a bucket

And they just wash it down and then we're back on that in that same cell

303 months or so later we were charged

I remember the charges still in Arabic

I still quote them for you, but the first charge was intimate, which means membership

Lagemaat in rating of a prohibited organization

The second charge was that we'd Bill Coley, will ketaba propagation by speech and writing of band ideas, and it was beautiful, because that's what convinced Anansi International to adopt us as prisoners of conscience the charges?

Bad ideas

Maajid Nawaz

Now why that's beautiful is imagine, by the way, I forgot to say. So I was 24 years old. By this time, yeah

Imagine an angry Muslim 24 at the peak of the war

On terror, yeah

Iraq hadn't yet been invaded, but 911 had happened

I hated the West

I hated what I called the kuffar infidels

And I existed to overthrow the Western order and I was prepared to die

For that

I was prepared to be tortured for it

And along comes Amnesty International and they say he doesn't deserve to be in jail for his ideas unless he's committed a crime and we hadn't committed any crime in Egypt

All we were doing was speaking about these ideas

These kind of revolutionary ideas

And because the Egyptian constitution had been suspended

Under an emergency, since the assassination of Anwar Sadat in 1981

By the guys I eventually met in that same prison

The Egyptian Constitution does protect ideas, but it had been suspended in the name of an emergency for over 20 years, and I'd like to when we get to the current day, come back to the the nature of how emergencies work

When they suspend your rights

OK, so this is they suspended the rights of Egyptians and it was meant to be temporary and that temporary situation lasted over 20 years

Which is why we ended up in jail

For our ideas, what was the?

Initial emergency, the assassination of the president

Joe Rogan

OK, so because of that emergency they used that to justify

Maajid Nawaz

Which I can assure you, assassinates assassinating a president is a lot more deadly than the Fr for COVID, which is 0.096% similar to the flu. So that was a real emergency where a president was killed

And it was meant to be temporary

The state of emergency existed for over 20 years

It's why they were allowed to treat us in that way because they had suspended the rights of their citizens as a permanent thing

Amnesty International comes along and says

These guys are prisoners of conscience

When I learned of that, it really really shook me

I had never in my life up until that point and I'm 24. I never received the positive

Word from any bastion of Western values, any institution, right?

Whether it was amnesty, governments, media

And it, and it began a process in me through in that time in prison to just try and understand why amnesty cared about defending my rights, because I knew I didn't care about them

We would go around attempting to deconstruct the concept of human rights in order to recruit people to our ideological worldview, but here was this organization

He knew that I defined them as a

A soft power enemy

We saw human rights organisations as a soft power tool of Western colonialism

And so they knew I defined them as a intellectual enemy, and yet they were defending me in my right and attempting to help Get Me Out of jail

So that began a process and I've said often, right where the heart leads, the mind can follow. So I think it's really important when you're trying to change people's minds and help people that they see an emotional connection first

Because, and we've you know we've, we've seen this in science right?

With neurological patterns I've often spoken to Sam Harris about this, that the often you look at the

The way people think, and actually we think that we are led by our thoughts, but actually something happens in the brain prior to us

Actually, even acknowledging what we're doing right so, and that brings up whole questions of free will that Sam talks about

But here in this context, amnesty reaching out to me softened my heart for the first time in my life

All I'd ever known up until that point

In my relationship with the West and the country in which I was born

Was violence

I mean, I've seen more violence than anybody should have seen at that stage

And that was the relationship I had my my relationship with society was defined through hate and violence, and that's all I've known through my adult years

My teenage years and onto my early 20s

We're in jail

This is when Iraq got invaded by Blair and Bush and Blair

Of course, we were really upset with that as Islamist prisoners

We believe this is all part of the war that we were involved in, but amnesty continued campaigning for us

So what I did is I spent we got eventually got convicted

I I served five years

Which in Egypt was meant to be 3/4 of the sentence. But we ended up staying for about four years in jail just under

And we were released

Having completed our full sentence

So it's not that amnesty got us out, but the mere fact they were campaigning for us

So I spent that time in prison

Reading everything, I'll get my hands on

We'll eventually let out of solitary confinement and die

Always having been somebody that appreciated intellectual discussion

I saw around me the who's who of political prisoners in Muslim Torah prison and we had everything from Communists and socialists

We had Muslims who had converted to Christianity

We had Christians, had converted to Islam

We had jihadists who assassinated the President and we had Israeli spies who were being accused of being Israeli spies

Everyone was in this jail

Wow, and we had a joke that under Hosni Mubarak in Egypt

If you change your mind from anything to anything as a criminal offense because it didn't make sense, right?

You had a Muslim convert to Christianity, threw him in jail, Christian convert to Islam

Of course, we were really upset with that as Islamist prisoners

We believe this is all part of the war that we were involved in, but amnesty continued campaigning for us

So what I did is I spent we got eventually got convicted

And I served five years

Which in Egypt was maybe 3/4 of the sentence, but we ended up staying for about four years in jail, just under

And we were released

Having completed our full sentence

So it's not that amnesty got us out, but the mere fact they were campaigning for us

So I spent that time in prison

Reading everything, I'll get my hands on

We'll eventually let out of solitary confinement and die

Always having been somebody that appreciated intellectual discussion

I swore around me the who's who of political prisoners in muscle after a prison and we had everything from Communists and socialists

We had Muslims who had converted to Christianity

We had Christians who converted to Islam

We had jihadists who assassinated the president

And we had Israeli spies who were being accused of being Israeli spies

Everyone was in this jail, wow, and we had a joke that under Hosni Mubarak in Egypt

If you change your mind from anything to anything as a criminal offence because it didn't make sense, right?

Yeah, Muslim converted to Christianity, threw him in jail

Christian convert to Islam

Throw him

In jail for for conversion

Everything any you change your mind on anything and you'd be

In jail you're

Unreliable, no?

So you had jihadis

Joe Rogan

What what was the logic?

Maajid Nawaz

Well, that's the that's The funny thing Mubarak didn't want anyone to think, right?

Joe Rogan

Oh wow

Maajid Nawaz

Just don't think just obey

Joe Rogan

So when he heard that you're just tossing and turning too much in your mind, you

Just throw you in jail

Maajid Nawaz

So are

Joe Rogan

Throw you in jail that guy is too sketchy

Maajid Nawaz

I mean, think

Joe Rogan

Thrown in jail

Maajid Nawaz

About it, you got. You got people that are assassinated said that right? Yes why did they assassinate him in 1981?

Monroe said that made a peace treaty with Israel, Egypt and Israel

Peace is because of that President

And and he

And it was military guys that assassinated him

And they did it because they believed that was treachery

They didn't want peace with Israel, so assassinated him, right?

So you can understand OK, you've got jihadis who believe making peace with Israel is treachery

They're in jail, but on the other hand, this guy I was with in prison as well, and he's been accused of being an Israeli agent threw him

In jail, two and the guys that prosecuted and convicted the assassins of Sadat

Right, they were in jail with the assassins of Sadat 20 years later

Joe Rogan

That's the danger of dictatorship

'cause you literally can just point at anybody you want and go lock him

Maajid Nawaz

Everyone ends up in prison

Up so I use that opportunity to speak to everyone

I had the advantage that we were young

They were like the the Sadat assassins had been in prison for longer than I've been alive. I was 24

They'd been in jail 25 years, so we looked at them and thought wisdom. Now these guys had also changed their ideology

In that time, they basically started advocating for a more peaceful approach and a more traditional faith in Islam as opposed to the politicized dogma

What I called earlier Islamism

Yeah, so I spent a lot of time with these guys because first of all they had my respect

They live the life that I had started on right?

But they also then come back from it

One he one of the their names was Doctor Tariq

He managed to become a doctor through his time in prison and studying

The other guy was

So I spent a lot of time talking to them and others are Egypt largest jihadi group at the time was called Malice Lahmia

Their leader was in prison as

Joe Rogan

Well, what was their tipping point like once they were incarcerated after the assassination?

What led them to change the way they viewed the world?

I mean 'cause you would imagine that people

One of the things that we always talk about with the prison system in America is you're just making making better criminals

You're making more hardened criminals

You're introducing them to other hardened criminals, and there's very little rehabilitation

So what caused these men to change their perspective?

Maajid Nawaz

So this is that's the general rule and I'll get to in a second

We eventually we also do

That kind of rehabilitation work in the UK with Muslims convicted of high level terrorism

In fact the brother, my friend who's who I'm working with and that was going to be here with me today

But some paperwork didn't work out with his situation, so he's not but

That it what happened in Egypt is the exception

There was a process called Maraja at, which means the revisions and

And they sent in a whole bunch of theologians to speak to the leaders of these jihadi groups

And eventually over a process a long period, and I imagine a lot of carrot and stick

The leadership of these groups, in particular the largest group, as I say, was known gammal Islamia, which is not the group that assassinated under us about the president that was known as AL Jihad in Islam or Islamic Jihad, but the other group which was larger was known as Gamal Islamia or the Islamic Group

That groups leadership began

This process of revision maraja at and eventually they came to what they called moderate workflow, which means a cease fire

They declared a cease fire with the government based upon theological revisions

And as a reward for their revisions of their of their violence, they were put into this prison, where their political wing were, rather than the violent wing, right?

And so, because we were the political wing, they were then deemed as being safe to be put with

The political side of it, as opposed to the terrorist side

So then I got to mix with these guys and I spent

All that time, reading their revisions in Arabic, debating it with them

Speaking to the other prisoners like there was this liberal presidential candidate called a man or who was thrown in jail because he was a presidential candidate

He stood for election against Mubarak, threw him in jail

They used some corruption charges on him, but everyone knew that he was because he stood as president and he wasn't an endorsed candidate

He was in jail, so I spoke to people that had a liberal ideology

Revised Islamist ideology

Communist prisoners spoke to everybody and then did a lot of my own reading, and one of the interesting things for me was reading in particular

English literature read a lot of talking

A lot of oil

I even read the Harry Potter books

In a jihadi jail wow and the interesting thing we're talking Orwell in particular is there's a lot you can learn from those stories that relate to our situation today

Joe Rogan

There's a lot of heroes journey stuff

Maajid Nawaz

Precisely, yeah so

And then

On top of that I read a

Lot of Islamic theology, a lot of out

I continued with my Arabic studies and the more I learn, the more I studied, the more tolerant I became and the more the dogma that I had adopted began to unravel

And this is

You know of my dialogue with Sam

It became an Amazon film

It's explained in that a lot of it is in the book with that that I did with Sam published by Harvard, which was my second book

But in essence, the more I learned about my tradition and MyHeritage, I was ignorant of that because I wasn't born with that heritage. I was born in, you know, in dislocation from it

But sitting with those who had studied this and those who had spent many years thinking about this, the more I learned, the more open I became

And because Amnesty had initially opened my heart

I began looking for alternatives

Now what I didn't want to do was leave the group or even announce leaving the group while in jail

I have a bit more dignity than that

I didn't want anyone to think I've done it because I'm in prison and someone pressured me, so I left prison

Still a committed member of the group on paper

Got back to the UK and even did some interviews as a member of the group, but within that year

It became very apparent to me that I was living a contradiction and I could no longer maintain in that further the sort of the dogma that I that I adopted I had had to UN

You know, I'd unpicked it in my mind in such a way that it was no longer sustainable for me to to to remain on the leadership, and then the group I was with

Offered me directly to become the leader in the UK

So within that week I had a choice to make

Either I live a lie

And I lead this organization while no longer believing

That this is good for anyone's future

Or I resign so I unilaterally and openly announced my resignation from the group and also my abandonment of my previous ideology in the favor of a more

And organic understanding of my heritage

Joe Rogan

Well, how was that met within the group?

How kind of outrage?

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, my marriage fell apart

My entire identity up until that point had been defined by families and friends around this ideology and organization

All of that imagine you've been plucked out of your reality and you have to reconstruct yourself from nothing

But on top of that, you've just come out of jail

The War on Terror is at its peak, Tony Blair is Prime Minister and Bush

Junior is president, so the world hates you

Because everyone thinks you're the enemy, you've just lost all your friends and you have to build yourself back up again from nothing with nothing

Joe Rogan

How did you maintain your resolve during that period?

'cause I've gotta imagine the pull to go back to your old ways

It's probably very strong because there's community there, and even though you had come to this realization in jail and through all your reading that there had to been

A great pull

To try to bring you back to the old life

Maajid Nawaz

This is why today we're talking about contemporary debates

The the stance I've taken against tyranny and I won't mince my words on it

This is why it's so insulting

It's seriously ignorant where some voices have come out and said our imagine now has become radical

He's radicalized

Sorry, I'll use the word radical myself, radicalized

He's become an extremist again

These people have absolutely no idea what extremism is

They have no idea what it takes to inoculate yourself against that before anyone else was even talking about counter extremism

They have no idea the inner discipline it takes to pull yourself out of that and lose everything

Joe Rogan

Well, where's that line?

Maajid Nawaz

I mean it was

It was incredibly difficult

But what gets what got me through it and what gets me through it today to to to draw that similar analogy?

What got me through it then?

Is you have to have a belief in why you're doing what you're doing

And I

I went seeking and I found people who were far better than the people I was following

Who were also consistent to my heritage

And yet believed in

Finding what we have in common and bringing people together rather than dividing people, there are again back to teachers

Yeah, spiritual guides

One of the first things that I needed to land on some form of spiritual and humanitarian platform

So I went to Sufi shaikhs who practice to solar for or purification of the soul of the inside to try and make sure that you're on a firm foundation and I went looking

And I got very lucky that one spiritual

Who I spoke to early on and he said, listen, you're gonna go on a journey

Trust the journey

And the important thing is we stay in touch but trust the journey and as long as your intention is good, you will land on your feet

And I remember one of the things he said to me, he said

We're in this situation now where it's almost like this Muslim Western divide

As I say, the War on Terror was ongoing

Blair was Prime Minister, Bush was president

And he said to me

Just imagine you're like

Moses in the court pharaoh and you're there and you're going to speak to these people to try and make them understand what you've understood as to why you pulled back from that brink

To try and help them understand that war isn't the way forward

With this, the whole War on Terror discourse, the whole paradigm

So I spent the next 10 years of my life on that guidance given to me by Sheikh Ali

Attempting to from the inside, working with the machine I'm now going to call it the machine, right?

The system

Working with that machine

In an attempt to be like Moses in the court of Pharaoh

Let them see through my example

What can be rather than what?

The bad things that you think are

The good that can be right?

So I met with Blair

I met with Bush in his house in Texas

I met Blair a few times I've met with PM Cameron

Met with Trudeau

I've met with a lot of these people in an attempt to show them there's another way

What I realized over the course of that attempt and we can get into some of this detail

But what brings me here today is 10 years of being an Islamist revolutionary

And then ten years

Of attempting to work on

On that high level, in governments in that machine, to try and soften the power of that machine, soften its own self inflicted blows such as the invasion of Iraq

Such as, you know, arbitrary kill lists

Assassinating people without due process to try and end that war, and instead bring about a dialogue

Unfortunately, the machine I was trying to work with I don't believe it's any longer possible to work on the inside and achieve

That aim how so?

Mission creep

Mission creep, yeah

So I so you may know, but for your listeners I'll say that after leaving that organization I set up a group called Quilliam in an attempt to be that you know what?

The guidance that was given to me and and I don't think I'd be where I am without that guidance you ask about how I did it

You have to have strong people around you

And you have to have an understanding of who you are and not lose that

And it's very difficult

But ten years I'm trying to work with that machine to say, look

Yes, there's a I can help you on the ideological side of how to how to speak to those Muslims who have gone down that path

But on your side, there is some responsibility

You've got to respect the civil liberties values that you claim you're fighting for

So if you're saying they hate our democracy, they hate our freedoms

That's not going to wash if you're invading countries

If you say they hate our democracies, they hate our freedoms

That's not going to wash if you're torturing people or you're outsourcing your torture

Two dictators that you support financially now this is true

With the UK as well as the US, right?

It's now established, not it's not what I'm saying now, isn't any longer in dispute, but it used to be when I first started talking about it

There's a guy called Abdul Hakim Belhaj from Libya

Who it's now being established that the British authorities outsourced his torture?

And that's now not even in dispute anymore

And they relied on the intelligence that they knew they got through him being tortured in a third country

It's called extraordinary rendition

When Western countries outsource torture to dictators and then rely on that intelligence to make their next move and my point is if you're fighting for your values

Right, Joe?

If you're if you're reacting because you're a father and you want to defend your children, the last thing you're going to do that is consistent with that is harm

Other peoples children

If you're fighting to defend children, so you're saying to me you're you're fighting for your values, but then don't outsource torture, don't invade countries, don't arbitrarily kill people from the skies without due process like a 17 year old American

And we're all lucky, son who was bombed under Obama's presidency in Yemen because they wanted their father. They knew the 17 year old was there next to him and they decided to bomb anyway

And The thing is, if you start behaving like this, of course every action causes a reaction, and there's me in the middle trying trying to say these guys are wrong

But this is also wrong

Yes, now that machine

It took me a while, ten years of attempting to try and you know, rein in the excess on both sides, of course, doesn't earn you any friends

Joe Rogan

Can I ask you more about the process like how do you go about meeting these people?

Like how does this setup like how do you meet Trudeau?

How you meeting Bush?

How is this?

How is this facilitated?

Maajid Nawaz

At the time I was the only one publicly speaking about any of this, and so they were all desperate to hear

Joe Rogan

From me because you or someone who was radicalized at one point in time and had converted over and they trusted

You or is it?

Maajid Nawaz

Every single one of these was an invitation

I didn't ask for any

Of these business

Joe Rogan

And how did they know of you?

Maajid Nawaz

It's it's interesting because we forget what the media world used to look like

With the Internet today I did all the kind of you know the prime time, so I did in the UK

BBC Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman here

I did CBS

60 minutes

Larry King, So what used to be the prime time shows they're not any yeah, right?

But so people would would would see this guy on their on their, you know on the CBS 60 minutes like who the hell is this guy who's just like he's been in jail?

He's now speaking against this stuff

So I would be invited

I was invited to Bush's home

In fact

Joe Rogan

What was that like?

Maajid Nawaz

Well, I'll tell you a story because he sat me down and like you you did, he said, well, tell me about yourself and I got to the point of when I said oh they tortured us in prison

And he said, I opened my book with his story, by the way, he said, stop right there

I said alright, OK?

And if you remember, Bush was that whole waterboarding and redefining torture, right?

Yeah, so he says stop right there

So I stopped

He looked at me in the eyes, he said, how do you define torture?

Joe Rogan

What was your impression of him as a person?

Maajid Nawaz

When I looked him back square in the eyes, I said, you know, electrocution on the teeth and genitalia

And he said, yeah, that's torture

Carry on

Now the interesting thing with Bush is very well I found him to be very personable

But then you know that really doesn't mean much when you're in in charge of a country that invades another country, but one on one

Joe Rogan

He was very easy to talk to

Did he seem slow?

No, not at all, right?

Was that an act?

Do you?

Think that kind of down home all Shucks type

Maajid Nawaz

What I've learned is look at media narratives today

Yeah, and it's so often the impression we have in media

Is a narrative built up, and especially in those days before we had decentralized media

It was a monopoly on how you define somebody, and so whatever the media defined Bush as actually one on one in person speaking to him, he wasn't that at all

And so it must have just been a narrative built up around him

He was very personable, very easy to talk to, very alert in conversation, more so than most world leaders that I've spoken to

Joe Rogan

Isn't it fascinating that today he is thought of as a reasonable Republican and he's thought of as like boy?

If only George W Bush was running for president like we think about him, the standards of behavior

If everything is shifted and and Trump threw a monkey wrench into the gears

That ******** the machine so hard?

Yeah, that they look back with with nostalgia of the days of Bush, but I can remember when Bush was president

The hate that people had for him

It was like it was palpable and then

When we invaded Iraq then it changed because after 911 then he had given this big speech and he had, you know he stepped up in this way where we felt comfortable like fine we have a leader

We've been attacked

We have to unite as a nation

This is a real leader and he gave a real speech and even Democrats were saying

Yes, we have a real president

Maajid Nawaz

One thing that's interesting about those years is before the invasion of Iraq, Muslim Americans used to generally vote Republican

And the reason was largely, again, there's always exceptions

The reason was largely because of the social conservative family values

Muslims are very socially conservative, believe in family, believe in community

Uh, all all

The all the debates you hear today about liberals and the whole kind of, you know, LGBT and all that stuff you can imagine coming from a religious background

Muslims are a lot more conservative on that stuff

They used to vote for Republican Party and then Iraq happened and they switched to the Democrats

And I think we're in a moment now where that switch is going back from the Democrats back very slowly back to the Republicans again

And Trump's last election result demonstrated that trend because despite Trump's presidency and I often get accused of all sorts of things. Look, I have been on the streets in London protesting President Trump when he floated the Muslim ban because I'm married to a beautiful American woman

And I would

I was worried about being banned coming into America with my background

It actually meant something, right?

Yeah, so I was on the streets protesting Trump, so despite me you know what I'm about to say?

I don't want anyone to misinterpret

Suddenly our measures Trump supporters

I'm tired of people putting words in my mouth

They haven't lived my life

They don't know why

I think what I think

But having protested Trump

It is interesting to see the results that he got in these elections

His share of the Muslim vote went up and his share of the African American vote went up, knocked down

This last 2020 election

And I I think that's the beginning of something that's happening

Where people on the social stuff, these communities and the same for Latino votes

By the way, these communities I think they're beginning to prioritize their social conservative once more

Because when you looked at foreign policy, there's not really too much that Biden redeems himself on

So I think that that vote is going to switch back again, but yeah

These these guys

I attempted for about 10 years through my then organization Quilliam

To attempt to pretty much has happened to me on the Islamist side, to attempt to try and soften some of that

Hard edge of the

Joe Rogan

War and how was that met with Bush?

Maajid Nawaz

He was charming, but of course it wasn't ever going to

Be Bush, it was going to be

The people around

Him right?

Joe Rogan

What was Dave on what you were saying?

Maajid Nawaz

Mind that his perspective, well, the last two years of the Bush Presidency

I think they really began getting to grips with some of this

And again, that's not a popular thing to say, and I remember the time is that those last year they began realizing that that this has to be more of an ideological and intellectual conversation, and not a physical war

You can't win right right in this war and said there was no way anyone

Joe Rogan

Was going to win until they were stuck in this situation, whereas

Many years deep into the war and realizing that they had done everything that they were trying to avoid, we had had that one desert storm war and I think people had come under the impression that if we were to invade a country, it would be very quick and very easy

We had this very American centric idea of what would go on in the war

Because of that, it made us so much more willing to enter into wars

Maajid Nawaz

It's insane, it's insane if a foreign army occupied America, would you just sit back and let them stay here for 10?

I mean come on, no man worth his salt is gonna sit there and watch our foreign army in there

If anyone invaded Britain, I'd be the first to say sign me up

Where do I join?

No one is just going to let foreign troops in their land, right?

So but this madness was brought about because back in those days

Bush didn't even know the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

That it was just pure ignorance that that the foreign policy neoconservative machine was hoodwinked by this guy, called chalaby in Iraq, who convinced them that if you invade, everything is gonna be hunky Dory

Iraq is going to blossom into this democracy. All that end up happening is 60% of Iraq was Shia. You end up creating this satellite of sphere of influence for Iran

Because Iran is is Shia origin country and ended up having this disproportionate influence in Iraq as a result

And you end up with a situation today, I mean

It's a mess when

Joe Rogan

You think back to this man trying to convince the Bush administration that everything was going to be fine?

It was going to blossoming and with democracy

What do you think was his motivation?

Do you think ultimately he knew that the Shia and the Sunni would go to battle and there would be a massive conflict?

And that it would destabilize the region

Do you think he was aware of that?

Or do you think they were operating on ignorance?

Or do you think they were operating under this premise that they were going to get to control the natural resources and it was worth it financially and they would sort it all out?

Maajid Nawaz

Well, you know

Individual intentions aside, if you look to Cheney, if you look to Rumsfeld and if you looked at this guy chalaby, he was from the Iraqi National Congress

And if you look at everything that happened since then and the behavior in Iraq and and beyond

It's definitely not

About bringing democracy

Now the jury is out for me

Is it oil?

Is it natural resources?

Is it strategic positioning?

It's definitely not what the reason that we were told, and it certainly wasn't weapons of mass destruction that was all built on a lie, and that's also come out since

The dossier

Joe Rogan

Do you think they knew about the lie for sure?

How many people do you think knew about like when they were broadcasting on CNN weapons of mass destruction, we have to invade Iraq

Who do you think knew that that was not true?

Maajid Nawaz

I mean so, remember Colin Powell, I'm quite sure he knew he was speaking ********

Joe Rogan

God, that's so hard to believe?

Yeah, that's so hard because he's he was

Maajid Nawaz

A good man, yeah?

Joe Rogan

And you know when you when you hunt

Having an example of a man who is a distinguished military career and then goes on to be a distinguished politician

He's one of the best examples we've ever had

Maajid Nawaz

But you remember he was opposed to it for a long time, yes

And then he gave that one speech

I think it was at the UN

Yeah, and I think that's the point that he

He knew what was going

He was opposed to it, he didn't wanna follow this

He had a vial or something and then somebody gave him something and then he said, alright

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

You know, and and I think when he did that that speech

Yeah, I think he knew in his heart something

Is not right

Joe Rogan

What was the vile what?

Maajid Nawaz

Did he have?

I can't remember, but it was used as evidence, right?

What we've had since in the UK as an inquiry, and they found that Tony Blair, pretty much you know, they all knew that something wasn't right with this intelligence

They were given and this 15 minutes thing, it just wasn't right

You know, and the guy the guy that exposed it

One of our scientists in the UK that Saddam can can strike within 15 minutes of it, yeah?

Joe Rogan

15 minutes thanks

Maajid Nawaz

And there's a guy who, in particular with the weapons of mass destruction

Now again caveat, Saddam is no picnic, right?

Joe Rogan

Yes, for sure

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, I mean the man was gassed his own people

He he was

He's the Iraqi equivalent of Mubarak

That did what he did to us in Egypt

Joe Rogan

And his sons were the most evil

Maajid Nawaz

I mean, again, people think I'm going to defend

This isn't about defending

Joe Rogan

Right, it's just true

Maajid Nawaz

Sedans is

The first, the first death in our organization, my former group was in Iraq

One of our members was tortured to death by Saddam

We were attempting to overthrow Saddam too, right?

So this is no favoritism to Saddam Hussein coming from me

What I'm saying is that you don't go in

Into war based on a lie and this guy called Doctor Kelly in the UK

He was the scientist from our whatever our defence sector who exposed this lie

He turned up dead a couple weeks later

No one knows what happened to him

He's dead, so it's just all weird, right?

But looking back?

Joe Rogan

Died of what?

Maajid Nawaz

They found him dead in his car

I think it's officially was suicide, whatever, who knows?

Yeah, I mean I don't know

Was Epstein suicide?

Joe Rogan

I say no

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, I mean it doesn't

Joe Rogan

What do you say?

Maajid Nawaz

Look like it does it

Joe Rogan

I get very uncomfortable when people say he did commit suicide

Maajid Nawaz

It's a bit

Joe Rogan

Weird, isn't it?

Or I started asking them questions like why do you think that like did you look at the autopsy?

Did you ever hear Michael Baden speak about it?

Where he?

Talks about

Maajid Nawaz

Well, cameras were switched off

Joe Rogan

Ligature marks at the bottom of his neck, which indicate he was strangled

Do you?

Did you hear about the broke break in broken bones rather?

In his neck?

Yeah, like that don't exist

Normally when people hang themselves they usually are only from someone being strangled

Yeah, there's a desire the camera thing

The security guards conveniently sleeping like there's so much

Maajid Nawaz

It's all strange

Joe Rogan

But it's in front of everybody's face watching pillar rabbit out of my hat

Yeah, and you're like holy **** if the light

Maajid Nawaz

Lie is big enough, right?

Joe Rogan

This is a good one, though

Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan

I mean it's

It's quite extraordinary that they would pull that off

They were able to pull that off in front

Of everyone's eyes, well, I mean

Maajid Nawaz

I don't if they pulled it off I

I'm not so sure

People deep down really, really, truly believe that that's that

I mean everyone I think realizes more than meets the

Eye with that

Joe Rogan

Yeah, I think so too

To speak about it, but it's gone on long enough that I think it's going to be a part of the past

Yeah, and people are just gonna go what happened to him, who knows

Yeah, what happened to?

Kennedy, who knows like I just said

Maajid Nawaz

With doctor Kenny

Right, who knows?

Joe Rogan

Yes, who knows

Maajid Nawaz

But what we have learned from that is

Easy to manufacture

Uh, my consent around something that isn't true for foreign policy purposes

It was done with Iraq and my whole thing was

How do we stop that happening again, right?

That's what I

Was trying to do with

Joe Rogan

With Bush with all

Maajid Nawaz

Of them

Joe Rogan

Well, when but

When you went through

Maajid Nawaz

To Cameron what?

Joe Rogan

What kind of dialogue did you have with Bush in terms of like trying to convince him to take a different approach?

Maajid Nawaz

Well, so as I say in these last two years they were listening

So I met with Secretary Chertoff who founded the Homeland Security

He used to be a judge

We would work very closely with Homeland Security

And that entire group

And what happened was if you recall, so those last two years, then Obama got elected

And as always, just as we felt, we will make beginning to make progress

I mean, one of my long

My bugbears has long been we have to Shuck wantanabe down this idea that that we can

Throw people in jail for years and years and years over decades with no charge, right?

It started with jihadi prisoners

You're going to Syria

It moved from jihadi prisoners to their wives and their children now, so there's just been a jailbreak in Syria and ISIS attempted jailbreak

Now there's a bit

There's a bit of detail to that story there that's more interesting than the fact that ISIS in the first organized attack

For many years since the fall of their so-called Islamic State

Have demonstrated that they've regrouped because they had a full frontal assault on this jail

But that's not what interests me and I think that the Kurdish forces have retaken it just yesterday

What interests me is the detail in this in this little story

And that is that

It turns out that there were hundreds of children in this jail

Children born to ISIS fighters who nobody wanted to take care of, so they threw them in this adult jihadi prison

Hundreds of children, some of whom died in this attempted jailbreak

So we've gone from and this is where when the Overton window shifts in that way, when you say our bushes years, if only our value system has shifted so much to a point, we are now

Living with this idea that our

States and our allies can throw children in jail for years with some of the most dangerous people on the planet

And it went from jihadis in Guantanamo to, in Syria now, to their wives and children, including by the way Western citizens

So this jailbreak some of the kids that were killed, 16 year old, 17 year olds

Western Citizens, Australians, you know and others

American is an American kid in the Times newspaper

It was

Joe Rogan

And why were they in?

Maajid Nawaz

The prison, because they were taken there as kids by their jihadi parents and nobody wants to do

No Western government credit to America under Trump

You guys took back all your foreign foreign fighters from ISIS

Britain hasn't done so, nor have most European

Joe Rogan

Took back all our foreign fighters

Maajid Nawaz

Who were Americans who went to join ISIS?

They're now back in the yeah, they're they're back and you know you bring them back

We don't

Maajid Nawaz

And if there's a crime to answer for, you put them on trial

But what you haven't done, what America hasn't done is say, you know what?

I don't give a damn

They might be American, but they can stay in Syria

And even if they're sentenced in Syria, say they finish their time, where do they go?


Maajid Nawaz

So that's what's happened is nobody saw this camps

There are entire camps, they're just internship camps, concentration camps, or intern camps like Al Hawl kamphol in Syria, where there's women and children

Kids from babies and they're growing up and they're having they're giving birth

In these prisons, and they're just no one charge them or convicted them

Of anything

Joe Rogan

So they're essentially being raised in these prisons

Maajid Nawaz

They are born and raised in prisons, Jesus Christ

Now you go from Guantanamo to that and I'm gonna bring you to another stage, right?

We talk about the Overton window of acceptability shifting

We've got a home secretary in the UK right now called Priti Patel

She then suggested that what do you do with these boat people that come over from France and they're trying to cross the English Channel undocumented migrants?

They're landing in Britain

What do you do with them, she said

Oh, I know what we can do with them

Arrest them

And then put them in a camp in Rwanda

So you've gone from we've gone from arbitrarily interning jihadis to arbitrarily interning their wives and their children to now arbitrarily interning

Anyone who's undocumented in these camps?

That's not the kind of world I want to see going forward

It's it's like that movie at Liceum, right?

Yes, that's not the kind of world I want to see going forward, so this is the kind of

Thing that I was upset with in that machine and I'm trying to work in the machine to say what you guys are doing is making the problem worse with this kind of behavior

Power brute force does not fix your problems

Joe Rogan

And these conversations, with Bush in particular, like what was that, like?

How did he respond to this?

So so?

Maajid Nawaz

So Bush was one meeting and after that one meeting I was able to speak to the administration

And as I say, so for the last two years, I felt we felt we were beginning to make progress

Obama gets in

And then they want to reinvent the wheel and a lot of people when they look at Obama

They think a great president again

I'm not gonna mince my words and I don't want anyone to say oh see Majid is this or that guys I'm

Learning jihadis to arbitrarily interning their wives and their children to now, arbitrarily interning

Anyone who's undocumented in these camps

That's not the kind of world I want to see going forward

It's it's like that movie Elysium, right?

That's not the kind of world I want to see going forward

So this is the kind of thing that I was upset with in that machine and I'm trying to work in the machine to say

What you guys are doing is making the problem worse with this kind of behavior

Power brute force does not fix your problems

Joe Rogan

And these conversations, with Bush in particular, like what was that, like?

How did he respond to this?

So so?

Maajid Nawaz

Bush was one meeting and after that one meeting I was able to speak to the administration

And as I say, so for the last two years I felt we felt we were beginning to make progress

Obama gets in

And then they want to reinvent the wheel and a lot of people when they look at Obama

They think a great president again

I'm not gonna mince my words and I don't want anyone to say oh see Majid is this or that guys I'm you don't understand

I didn't even come from this system

I wanted to overthrow the

Whole thing Obama and Bush together

I was anti democracy full stop

So this is not about me supporting Bush supporting Obama supporting Trump

Supposing anyone, I'm looking at this from the outside and seeing what's going wrong

Visa V

This specific debate, you know?

And speaking objectively about it, regardless of whether you're left wing or right wing, so Obama comes in

And this man launches more drone strikes than Bush has a kill list which Bush never had

That is unaccountable

That kill list he made, including American citizens, was not accountable to Congress

So on the on, the physical war side, he basically did even more than Bush did

With his assassinations with his NSA spying

With his

Military approach to solving problems with his drones

More drone strikes than Bush ever conducted

He just ratcheted up the military side of this

And we were then when Obama became president, my work was for a long time ostracized from the Obama administration because of this point

And then where he should have done something like the rise of ISIS completely?

Joe Rogan

Useless so you that your work was ostracized because you were working towards peace and a less brutal approach and he was conducting drone strikes and NSA surveillance

Maajid Nawaz

They didn't wanna hear what I just said to you

Yeah they don't wanna hear it

Joe Rogan

They just didn't want to hear that and they, but they knew your position and did you eventually get to meet with him?

Maajid Nawaz

Not him

Joe Rogan

Not him

Maajid Nawaz

Wow, I met

I met

I met Hillary Clinton

I met Madeline Albright but I didn't meet

Joe Rogan

Obama, did you ever meet anybody they smell like sulfur?

What any of those people we like?

They're evil

This is an evil person

This is for sure

From straight from hell

Maajid Nawaz

So anyway, just ******* around

I wouldn't

Yeah, not as good

Joe Rogan

But you met Hillary Clinton

You met George Bush

Who else did you meet inside the organization?

Maajid Nawaz

On the US side

Madeleine Albright secretary Chertoff when he was head of the Homeland Security Department

Joe Rogan

Was any one group or one administration more open to your ideas?

Maajid Nawaz

Well, the same thing happened

It's usually the case, right?

It takes six years last two years of the Obama administration, like the last two years of Bush, they began listening

To us

And then of course Biden, sorry, Trump comes in

The interesting thing is again that whole ISIS problem was playing out under Biden under Obama

Sorry yeah

But what what I began witnessing is I'm going to call that machine

I'm gonna call it mission creep

You've got to a situation now under Biden

Where even those that

Who are Trump supporters who question the US election and it's you know

You know transparency are now being defined as domestic extremists or domestic terrorists, and this is where I have to exit because I'm I'm saying, OK, hold on

You guys, first of all, you have no idea what extremism is

No idea what terrorism is and if you're going to weaponize that language and start applying it onto people that question and election right?

I cannot be a part of that, so I shot Quilliam down

Unilaterally just shut the thing down

I will not be used to stigmatize Trump voters as domestic extremists extremism

Terrorism is a very specific thing, and you're going to

It's like racism, you disagreeing with me isn't racist, right?

But that's how it's being used often right these days, right?

And you're going to use that people like me

That's actually dodge, hammer attacks, machete attacks

Screwdriver attacks watch friends get stabbed over that thing called racism

I will stop you misusing that word because I know that if the boy cries wolf

Then when some little kid like me is trying to run away from the real race

It's not going to

Joe Rogan

Believe them

Would you categorize people like the January 6th attack at at the very least?

There's some amongst them that are extremists

There was people that showed up at the Capitol with zip ties

Yeah, I mean, and they were looking for politicians

Yeah, there are some amongst them that most certainly were extremists

Maajid Nawaz

Absolutely, that's like there's some among Muslims that were extremists

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, but

But the language is

Joe Rogan

See the concern though from the administration that there, at the very least, there's the beginnings of something that could be absolutely awful

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, and that's where you've got to be accurate in

Your language

Joe Rogan

But there I think that's the problem, right?

That they they use hyperbole

They use exaggeration and also they use agent provocateurs

Precisely that conversation where Ted Cruz was speaking to the woman from the FBI

I'm sure you've seen that where she said, have you ever incited?

Has the agency incited violence?

I can't answer that

Yeah, when when she rattles off a bunch of things that she can't answer you like hey, there's supposed to be a real ******* clear answer to all those questions

It's supposed to be no, no, we don't do any of that stuff 'cause that stuff

Maajid Nawaz

's illegal entrapment

Entrapment is not legal in

The UK, but it still is here

And it gets used often and you

Joe Rogan

It gets used often

Maajid Nawaz

Know we we?

You know we know

There were certain people in that crowd that were with law enforcement, yes, and they were behaving less than admirably

Joe Rogan

And with yeah

Yeah, and it seems like there was some people that had a vested interest in this going sideways, and I think it was a tool to sort of label the administration as being

Even more awful than they already

Thought it was

Maajid Nawaz

Yes, but you know it's like it's like

You're not vaccinated, right?

No right doesn't

So I stop using labels, anti vaccine, right just to try and to to pigeonhole you before you even speak, right?

So we've got to be careful with language because it's

A weapon, right?

Joe Rogan

The anti VAX thing is a big language

Maajid Nawaz

Right, so it's the same with the US elections and it's the same with Muslims and terrorism. And I began realizing that this language was being weaponized for the purposes, not of achieving a solution to the problem


Maajid Nawaz

We're attempting to fix, but for politics and I thought you know what the problem here is

I'm going to be instrumentalize my language

My work is going to be instrumentalized

And so I had to get out and do what I'm doing from the outside in these sorts of conversations instead

There's no way I could remain part of that phenomenon

I mean, look Joe, you asked me about who won Bush V Gore in Florida

Till this day I'll say to you, I think Gore won

Does that make me an extremist?

Now obviously Bush became president

Obviously I have to deal with that reality and

Accept it

Yeah, but if you ask me what's my opinion. Bush's brother was governor

There's something going on with the chads or

Joe Rogan

Whatever you call them, wasn't there something going on with John Kerry too?

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, something weird right now

Joe Rogan

That election too, yeah

Maajid Nawaz

Now I've got a right

I've got a right

To question yeah Bush V Gore

Just as a Trump voter has a right to question Biden V

Joe Rogan

You know, I, I think you do have a right and I also think there's an issue where it's fun

To think in elections rigged?

There's a, there's an excite

I don't want funds of bad word there's an excitement that attaches to it that's akin

To conspiracy theories

It's akin to people that go looking for

Maajid Nawaz

UFO's yeah yeah but I wouldn't go so far as they rigged my. My questions were more you know the Time magazine. Yeah they do

Joe Rogan

No, but some people do think it's rigged and that's what's exciting to

Maajid Nawaz

Them yeah Umm

The Time magazine

Piece, yeah

Which piece the the piece that explained the the wording it used was like there's a cabal of well organized financed people that saved democracy on that day

Of the election

Joe Rogan

Oh, right

Maajid Nawaz

Though that's right, yeah, that's right

That's what I'm talking about that that leads to question Mark, right?

That's right

Joe Rogan

That's sneaky talk

Maajid Nawaz

And they use the word cabal, right?

So as somebody who was

Joe Rogan

We fortified the election right?

Maajid Nawaz

At the school

Yeah, that's the word they use, fortified, right?

Joe Rogan

Yes, yes

Maajid Nawaz

So as somebody who at the time was a broadcaster on a talk show on mainstream UK radio

It's my job to say what the heck?

Is this yeah?

Right, So what?

I didn't want to be a part of?

What I very clearly I saw as is now happening with the VAX debate, was a weaponization of language and instrument instrumentalization of the of those activists that are there to try and fix the problem for political purposes, yes

So I'm like listen I you know what I've done my bit here

I try to be the Moses in the court of Pharaoh

I've gone back to my spiritual guide, who was there originally bit like a Yoda figure

We do a lot of work, by the way, on, as I say, Muslims convicted of high level terrorism offences and

Work with them

On physical training, MMA fighting actually and spiritual guidance to try and get them back to a solid foundation

Less than minus the hate

So there's a guy from Chicago

There's a few in the UK

These are people of leaders of the terrorism wings in prisons like Belmarsh

And they've you know it


Maajid Nawaz

Rehabilitation is a very difficult thing to do, and actually it's the exception, not the norm, but where it where you have got that exception

That's why it's so valuable

That's why it's so powerful

So I want to continue with my brother or manraja shake highly to do this kind of work working outside of my media work outside of my, you know, my activism for civil liberties

I will keep up on the rehabilitation prison rehabilitation side, but more direct more

One on one

Try to work with the system

Try to work with that machine

And the problem is that the mission creep, it didn't just stop with

By the way, with the War on Terror, but you look at that with the COVID

You look at whatever emergency pops up

I've come to the conclusion that there are some nefarious

Factions out there that will seek to use this emergency to increase state power

Joe Rogan

Yeah, this these conversations that you had

Did you make any progress?

Was there ever a moment where they implemented any of your ideas or or took it into consideration and and use that information upon?

Making new decisions like was what kind of dialogue were you able to?

Maajid Nawaz

Have with that progress with the public progress in the messaging

Definitely progress in humanizing people that come from my background and showing that actually there is a different way

Yes progress with policy

I'm not very

Joe Rogan

What was their motivation for meeting?

You then like, why?

Why would they want to sit down and talk to you like, say, if Hillary Clinton sat down and talked to you, why?

Trudeau sat down, talked to you

Maajid Nawaz

So so the best

So, so the best example I can give for this is like why did Sam want to talk to me?

Who prior to that was very much

In that kind of world where there's a problem with Islam, yeah, I met Sam at a debate in New York called

This is an intelligence squared debate where I was arguing for the motion

Islam is a religion of peace and

I Jan and Douglas Murray both now my friends were arguing against that motion and I met Sam at the dinner afterwards

Now, what happened with Sam is up until that point he'd been being attacked by whatever, like the Ben Affleck example

Yeah, on on the Bill Maher show as being an anti Muslim, a racist

Now take that example put it to governments

Governments are ultimately very sensitive to public opinion, and you launch this War on Terror

It gets revealed that the whole Iraq thing

Was built on a fabrication

Governments are quite sensitive to the idea that actually they are coming across as anti Muslim and they've got strong Muslim minorities in their countries

You need to fix that problem somehow and they were desperate for a solution so they would reach out to me and I think part of it was optics

Honestly, I think that also the people on a junior level

I think genuinely probably wanted to help, but policy doesn't get set at that junior level and even when you speak to the Heads of State, I mean how much?

I don't know how much of Canada's policy

Right now is

Trudeau right, versus whichever faction he's with that is in power

Joe Rogan

What do you?

Maajid Nawaz

Think I think it's more the latter, so it's not just any, it's not

Just one man isn't right

Joe Rogan

It can't be right

No, it can't

Well, it's also when you see their narrative shift and what they say in terms of like mandates and things that they're going to implement

We wouldn't do that, and then that's the norm

Yeah, like what?

What do you think is what's what's the main factor?

Behind like when you become is I. I don't know anything about Canada's politics, but if you become the President of the United States, one of the weirdest things about the job is that it's the most important job in the entire country, if not the world. And we have new people doing it

Yeah, and we have a popularity contest to elect the new person to do it and you could see through Trump you don't even have to have experience in government

No experience, you don't have to have been a mayor or a governor or a senator

Maajid Nawaz

That kind of reinforces the the notion that there's a

There's a faction who are meant

To support that person


Behind the scenes who have the experience, we call that the bureaucracy civil service

That that's why I believe it's never just about that

One person, of course

And unfortunately, what what we're witnessing at the moment, suppose we can come to this later

But what happens when that faction is no longer serving the interests of the values of countries meant to be built on?


Maajid Nawaz

Then you have a situation where the state is no longer serving the people, which is what I believe we're in at the moment

Joe Rogan

The state is no longer serving the people now this mission creep

You experience this during the Bush administration you experience, so you feel like with every administration it keeps getting deeper

Yeah, yeah

Maajid Nawaz

I mean the best example is that once I'm example I spoke right, it went from arbitrarily interning the jihadis

Who were meant to be like very dangerous people, and now we're putting kids in jail

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

Who are kids of the jihadis who are born? As you know, either taken US 345 year olds or born in the prison and their wives and everyone is like Oh no one wants them back right now. You go to camp and hole in Syria full of wives and children

And they're just running around these camps and they're in prison

It's a camp

Some of them born there, some were 234 years old and they've grown up in

There just imagine that man

Joe Rogan

Horrifying, you know

I mean, this is the stories we hear about North Korea

And we're

Horrified about that yeah?

Maajid Nawaz

We're doing it

Joe Rogan

Yeah, that's

Maajid Nawaz

Terrifying, so that's mission creep for you

That's that's a classic example of mission creep to a point where it's become politically acceptable for a UK home secretary to say we're going to do the same too

Undocumented migrants now that's a problem we have to fix, by the way

Our borders, we've gotta work out a solution that's humane to that problem

And it does require a solution

And I do recognize that

Open borders aren't practical

Joe Rogan

Well, our situation is even stranger because we scoop everybody up, put them at the border and then depending on what you believe, distribute them throughout the country and on either buses or however they're doing it now

If that is true, if they just allowing people to just come into the country, undocumented

It's like you have to wonder like what's the motivation behind that and what is also the motivation about this push to try to allow undocumented people to vote

So like, are you letting people into the country as a bribe so that they'll vote for the people that let them into the country versus the people that wanted to secure the the borders?

And build the wall

Yeah, so are you

Are you essentially stocking your pond?

You know you're bringing in more people that are going to go with your agenda and it's and they're, well, there's all this thing in this country

This is massive contradiction, right?

Where you

Can't have someone need to have a driver's license or identification to vote. 'cause that's racist, but you can have them need to have a driver's license or identification to show they've had proof of vaccination

Yeah, but you can have someone come in from across the border and not check them for vaccination, not vaccinate them and not check to see if they have

COVID it's crazy, right?

But you can't this

Maajid Nawaz

Is what I mean by politicization all these debates?

Joe Rogan

Yeah, it's well, it's it's

It's so inconsistent and it's so they're they're both simultaneously existing from the same people where they're they're espousing

One thing that literally contradicts the other thing

Maajid Nawaz

Why would you do that though?

Why would why would any individual give a reason for doing thing 8?

And then and then ditch that reason and do exactly the opposite

For thing B

It shows you that's not the

Joe Rogan

Reason, well, one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you is because I think your perspective is so much different than anyone else is because of your

Because when you were radicalized because of your time in prison and because of

The incredibly rational way you pursue truth and the way you discuss things

Now I've seen your BBC program and I've seen you give talks

You have a very clean and rational way of addressing and breaking down all these processes that are in place that cause people to behave a certain way you understand it

Because you were radicalized yourself as well, you understand the mind

Play that, I think, is oftentimes

It's known of but not discussed and certainly not understood deeply like you do, and I think that is the key to all of us understanding what's going on right now that there's a lot of panic

There's a lot of moral outrage and a lot of virtue signaling a lot of signaling to the tribe

But then there's also

These forces that have been moving in play as what you call mission creep and this is an opportunity for them to push even further in this general direction, and I don't think many people are aware of that, and I think they're looking at it in terms of what their ideology supports, where their their ideology is pro vaccination or their ID

Ideology is pro open borders or pro closed, whatever it is like, people are locked into a prearranged, predetermined group of ideas and opinions that you have adopted that you will support, and it's become almost like a religion and religions

The problem with religion, the the term religion is we always think of it involving a deity

And it doesn't have to involve a deity, it can have the ideas become the deity, the the the signaling to the group becomes a deity

Yeah, I think you know that more than anyone

Maajid Nawaz

Well, this brings us to contemporary times

After shutting William down

Just there was a bit of an overlap, but I primarily became a talk show host on a UK mainstream radio station and we had Collins as well, and COVID struck and I had to take a view on it

I'm double jabbed, and the reason I am is right at the beginning I gave the benefit of the doubt to the narrative

To the authorities telling us what we needed to do right at the start

And I thought you know what?

I'm I'm not anti vaccine in principle so fine you know I had no reason to question any of it

What happened is once

They implemented this emergency law

They ditched all of our rights in the UK under this Coronavirus Emergency Act

Now I've seen that before

That's why I said, we'll come

Back to emergencies

I've seen that story play out before and the problem is the minute the government takes your rights

There are still blowback, legislative blowback from the War on Terror that we still haven't got

Rid of

Joe Rogan

Patriot Act

Maajid Nawaz

In the US, in the UK, the rights of silence is now in any port of entry or exit. In the UK, Heathrow Airport shipping port

It's now a criminal offence to stay silent

If a counter terrorism investigation is conducted on you

The Terrorism Act

2000 has criminalized your right to

Joe Rogan

Silence, so if you are in investigated or interviewed by someone and you choose to be silent, they just lock you in jail

Maajid Nawaz

For that it happened to me. So when I got out of prison, the Terrorism Act 2000 was already in place

I was released from prison in 2006. I was interrogated under this power and I was informed directly by police officer. Your silence is a criminal offence, as is refusing your right for us to take your DNA

So I took my DNA by force and I had no right to silence and I had no right to a lawyer

Now what's changed since then is they reformed the DNA part

They've reformed the legal representation, but the right to silence is still that's still there

It's been taken away now that's an example of a hangover from the War on Terror

There's many if you remember, under Blair, they try to extend detention without charge

For 90 days

So emergencies the Patriot Act in the US emergencies are always used by the state for a power grab. It's the nature of human beings

Joe Rogan

Yes, it's an opportunity

Yes, it's a

It's an opening that you do

Maajid Nawaz

Of course it is

Joe Rogan

It's like if in an MMA fight, if someone stumbles, you dive on his back

Why wouldn't you exploit it?

Yeah, you it's natural there to

Maajid Nawaz

Yes, you know

And you wanna beat your opponent so

Joe Rogan

And it's a massive opportunity to change the paradigm

Maajid Nawaz

Of course

Joe Rogan

You change everything that's happening

Maajid Nawaz

So when the minute they suspended our rights under the Coronavirus Emergency Act, is the minute my my light started switching on?

Like where's this going to head?

Joe Rogan

Did you use your platform to advocate for a different approach?

Did you say how you felt about this idea of stripping away laws in the idea under the guise of protecting people that this is not only unnecessary, but it's unproductive and it leads to bad things and instead

There could be some sort of advocacy campaign for vaccination or advocacy campaign for doing responsible things and social distancing and not not taking it to the extreme of changing laws

Maajid Nawaz

So look yes and where I'm coming from is back to Egypt

They injected me against my will

In prison

Joe Rogan

With what?

Maajid Nawaz

Who knows?

Joe Rogan

I mean occupations, right?

Maajid Nawaz

Who knows what it was we were taken and you know you've just come out

Of a torture dungeon, right?

And you're gonna fight with them and get sent back to the dungeon

You're gonna let them put out whatever they want in your arm

So we had, you know this, we're in in the 1st place

We were prisoners of conscience under duress, which is why in principle it is against our will and there's no point trying to fight it

So coming from that background, the minute in the UK they started saying if you don't get your jab, we're going to sack you

Right, no job, no jab

They called it

Yeah, if you don't get this vaccination you can't travel and then it started going from there

Mission creep if you don't get this vaccination, we're going to have a lockdown only for the unvaccinated, which some European countries announced

If you don't get this vaccination, well, you know we're gonna start looking at whether you have to pay a fine every month

Which some European countries announced and some media pundits in the UK will openly advocating on the airwaves, right?

You start hearing this rhetoric

You gotta appreciate

I've come from the background where I've had to reason myself out of a totalitarian agenda and embrace instead something I've believed I could hold onto and bring people towards

What was that thing?

Well, through the inspiration of amnesty, it was essentially our values grounded in civil liberties

And democracy

I've I have been I've lost a family over that struggle

Yeah, to commit to in that War on Terror, to fighting a war, an ideological war to defeating darkness in the form of terrorism that was beginning to engulf the Muslim mind

I've sacrificed a lot in that struggle to come out on the other end

Of everything I fought for, only to be

Told that the thing I'm defending is going to start doing the

Same thing the state is going to start telling me what I have to put in my body and when, and if I don't agree, I can't travel

If I don't agree, I can't work if I don't agree, I can't leave

Joe Rogan

My home now to play devil's advocate from their perspective

They want to get people to be inoculated because they want to protect the population

They want to slow the spread of this deadly disease, and they want to bring society back to normal as quickly as possible

They see the tools that are at their disposal

And they decide to use the law to try to make it

Forced to try to coerce people into getting vaccine for their better good

Maajid Nawaz

And there's a by policies and consensus on what you just said

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

The last time there was a bipartisan consensus on such a big lie was the invasion

Joe Rogan

Of Iraq

When you say such a big lie, well, it's a lie

What is?

A lie about it

Maajid Nawaz

The COVID vaccination doesn't stop infection

It doesn't stop transmission

Joe Rogan

In the beginning, right?

Maajid Nawaz

It does reduce, it reduces it for 12 weeks, after which point

Joe Rogan

Is it only 12 weeks that it doesn't?

Maajid Nawaz

12 weeks

Joe Rogan

It vary per person?

Maajid Nawaz

So younger people don't need it

Of course, for older people, when we look at the studies, it's 12 weeks after which point it reduces to the similar levels in terms of infection and transmission

As the unvaccinated, now that we have the academic papers to demonstrate that, but actually if you look at real-world data today right now England, that doesn't have vaccine passports compared to Wales and Scotland that

And we have lower rates in England

Even the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, is on camera saying this thing doesn't stop infection or transmission

I argue with you

That's why England has ditched the entire thing

Joe Rogan

Yesterday, but isn't it because they thought it did initially?

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, but this yeah yeah yeah

Joe Rogan

That's why they were the when the initial laws were put into place

Yeah, the consensus was that it stopped transmission

It stopped infection and it protected you from hospitalization and death so


Maajid Nawaz

I'm prepared to

I'm prepared to, you know, on the principle of charity

I'm prepared to assume that's what

Joe Rogan

They thought

Seems like that was the general consensus amongst medical experts in the early days of the vaccine

That's why you know many of them that are now

They've come out against these mandates

They they talk about the initial days of it, what it was like, and This is why they were in

Support of this

Maajid Nawaz

I'm prepared to concede on the principle of charity without knowing those guys

I mean, I know there were people that weren't establishment scientists that were saying from day one they were saying there's something wrong with this, but but let's let's apply the principle of charity

Joe Rogan


OK, yes we should yes

Maajid Nawaz

Because we should with that right?

The minute it became clear because this is such an egregious violation of human dignity, the minute it became clear this should have been ditched, it it, but it hasn't, you know, until today

Even in my Country, Scotland, Wales haven't dropped this these mandates

Now the other point though

Is that?

Let's assume that was their intention

I've got a deeper question which goes beyond the science

And that is that

If you've got if you've got

The power to dictate to people what to put in their bodies on behalf of other people

Right, and you're the state, and that's the law you bring in now that I believe is such a fundamental shift in our social contract in the relationship between you and the state that it requires not only a broader discussion, I, I think that requires a democratic mandate to bring in because it's such a fundamental

Change in direction in Western liberal democracies when it comes to the relationship we have with the state, what do I mean by that?

If I said to you, Joe, listen, you've got two kidneys, ma'am

I need one

And you're going to give it to me because the state says you have to look after me

Now if I if I have done that without your involvement without your choice for the common good, and I have the power to be able to do that

And if I the reasoning I'm giving is

That there are people that deserve this kidney and you have a spare

One and that you have to look after other people

Now it could be kidneys

It could be anything

It could be any medical procedure and generally beyond that it could be anything you have to do for other people sake

Now if I want to redefine that relationship because up until now you had every right to say my blood is my blood, and I know someone needs a blood donation or

You know, or an organ donation

I know I should care for people, but it's still my decision if I'm gonna change that and say it's no longer your decision right then it requires a broader and deeper conversation, and it requires I'd say that's referendum level change in our culture

Yeah, like Switzerland, has referendums, or it's like Brexit referendum in the UK

It's referendum level shift because it sets the precedent

That going forward, I have a 5 year old. If I surrender this debate now and I'm 44 years old and say yes OK state on behalf of protecting Joe, you can force me to do certain medical procedures because I have to think about Joe, right?

I've surrendered my my individual bodily autonomy for the common good

My 5 year old boy is never going to know what it felt like to say my body, my choice

Now what I don't understand is the cognitive dissonance, because on the one hand we argue my body, my choice when it comes to abortion

And we suddenly ditched that principle when it comes to vaccination or inoculation

Joe Rogan

Well, the the answer to that is vaccination inoculation protects those around you

That's what they would say

Maajid Nawaz

So so peanuts yeah peanuts yeah

So some people have a uh allergy allergy to peanuts it's a minority of people

Right, But it's the reason why and you'll know this

Anyone will know that you go into a restaurant and they ask, do you have any allergies?

Before I order the food, yeah, and the reason they do that is because if there's even a trace of a peanut in that dish, you could die

If I'm going to start mandating these injections, we know that there is a rare side effect

We know that there are some people that die from them

Lisa Shaw was a BBC journalist who died after her Astra Zeneca vaccine as officially ruled by the coroner and written up by the BBC

I'm in touch with her husband

Right, his name is Garth

Joe Rogan

Now they more transparent about injuries over there they've

Maajid Nawaz

Started to be because our resistance has been very fierce to all of this

England is a bit of an outlier now they just ditched everything yesterday all of their kind of there's a lot more to do, but they've ditched what they called Plan B

The whole idea of vaccine passports because there's been such a fierce resistance to this

So take it back to that point, yeah, so so if I mandate injections, right vaccination?

Joe Rogan

So this woman

Maajid Nawaz

Some people are going to die because we know that there is a side effect that some people die from this thing

Death is a side effect

Yes, minority of people

But it's like peanuts, right?

Right now it's insane to mandate peanuts in every meal, right?

So, again, back to looking

Joe Rogan

Right, but peanuts don't have any

There's no protecting other people by eating a peanut

Maajid Nawaz

Exactly, so go back to the original because we know that doesn't apply anymore, right?

Beyond 12 weeks, it doesn't even protect people anymore

But let's go back to the original

And give them the benefit of the doubt

Joe Rogan

But doesn't it still protect them from hospitalization and death?

Isn't that the?

Maajid Nawaz

Depending on age, yeah

Joe Rogan

Depending on the age

Maajid Nawaz

Depending on age, right?

So you know a 5 year old, definitely not 12 year old, no?

My dad, he's is in his 80s like late 70s eighties

Yeah, he's had his boosters

Yeah, you know so and he's got comorbidities

So if the infection fatality rate is 0.096%, like the flu right now the Office for National Statistics in the UK through a Freedom of Information request has just revealed the number of people who died solely from COVID, with no other coexisting illness. 17,700 and I think 31

If my memory serves, it's definitely 17,700 and something total number of people from the beginning of this pandemic who've died only from COVID and

Joe Rogan

This is only in Britain

Maajid Nawaz

In Britain, right?

We were told the figure was in the

Hundreds of thousands

Right now this is all coming out in the UK now

Yeah, there's a bit of a bit

Joe Rogan

Of a retreat from all of this narrative, but isn't the problem with that narrative that so many people have comorbidities and we have to protect them too?

Like the thing about this country is, there's a large percentage of us that are obese

Yeah, it's probably somewhere in the neighborhood. We looked at it right? It was like 40% or something like that, so it's very

Level so like what do we?

Maajid Nawaz

Do so Lisa Shaw and others

So you're gonna say I'm gonna sack somebody who doesn't protect the other person

Yeah, So what we're saying is, and this is what I'm saying requires a proper debate because it's a shift in our culture

At least I know

Joe Rogan

I'm just playing devil's advocate

Maajid Nawaz

I know, I know

I've heard you speak on this Lisa Shaw, who died after her Astra Zeneca vaccine

Was that death worth it?

Because somebody else can't control their dietary habits?

Joe Rogan

Well is that I mean obviously comorbidities very

It's not just her dietary habits, it could

Someone could have like some serious autoimmune disorder

There's quite a few different things that constitute the big one is dietary habits

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah obesity, yeah, right

Joe Rogan

Though it's their obesity is huge

Maajid Nawaz

If somebody is vulnerable in any other way, what we've done with every other illness to date is that the vulnerable person has to protect themselves through a number of means, yes, and we do what's reasonable to make sure the vulnerable person is looked after what we have never done is say that I'm responsible for your comorbidities and your extra

Health problems and I have to take something at risk of losing my job that might have a side effect in me and could even kill me

Yes, by law

Because I lose my job or I can't travel, I can't go into this restaurant right now for me that I mean the science for it by now

By the way, is clear, but let's assume this whole conversation is built on the principle of charity that they didn't know the science at the time


Maajid Nawaz

That still doesn't

That doesn't exonerate us from the political conversation that was needed about what kind of society we want to live in, because for me, if you get to a point like New York is today, Wales and Scotland

Well, you're telling me that I need to show identification before going into a restaurant before going into a hotel concert

We've got a papers police society in that case now

You can't go from a democracy to a papers police society

Within one election term, without having any consultation with the public on this, and without having a proper and informed debate about how this will permanently change the culture of our society

And that's for me a bigger problem

I mean, the science is clear as I say, but let's have this entire conversation on the assumption that when they initially brought it in, they were genuine, right, even though now it's proven that that's not the case, but that's fine

I'm I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt you want me to concede that from now on and permanently

The state can tell me

What to put in my body for the sake of the common good and to continue to do so every six months with

A vaccination that hasn't been tested for any long term side effects

I just have to accept

That the state knows what's best for me and always does the right thing

Now, as I say, the last time there was a bipartisan state based consensus on something so meaningfully wrong was the invasion of Iraq

Now you're speaking to somebody who's been on the

On the on the blunt end of what happens when a state gets something so wrong, yeah?

There is no way you can undo what I've seen in my life to know that the state doesn't always act in our best interests

And there is no way that you can remove those experiences from me now, especially when you're talking to somebody who's been injected against his will in prison, right?

And the ethnic minority case here, whether it's here in the US with the African American communities and the whole

Experience of medical abuse by the state, or I'll move it again to personal example

In Pakistan, the CIA conducted a fake vaccination program on children in the hunt for bin Laden

That's not even concealed

It's been admitted

You can is that Jamie, you know, Jamie, you can look it up

Vox has reported everyone report 'cause they've admitted it and apologized for it. Now in the hunt for bin Laden there was a fake hepatitis B vaccine program on children collecting all their DNA to try and see if they were related to bin Laden so they could trace bin Laden. This is why in Pakistan my family's country of origin

The Taliban blow up vaccination centers because they think they're CIA fronts, right?

So while he's looking it up, I'll, I'll keep telling you this story

You know how the CIA's fake hepatitis B vaccine program in Pakistan help fuel vaccine distrust? Now now you know what is that?

We all do

Joe Rogan

Is that on there the fake hepatitis B vaccine program?

Maajid Nawaz

And Jamie, if you Scroll down, it may even contain the CIA's apology in there. But whoops, but but many of them do once he got exposed

Yeah, but again Joe, the only way this gets exposed is when people like us have these conversations

Yeah, now you're trying to, not you, but you know people are trying to convince me that none of this happened

That the states always had my best interests at heart

I can't undo those experiences and those memories and the treatment to say OK, you were wrong on Iraq and you actually lied

You were wrong with this hepatitis B vaccination program in Pakistan

My family still lived there

OK, you were wrong there and you lied and you did this fake program using vaccines

But you know what?

OK you were wrong there but

Oh, and you were wrong when you injected me in in prison

One of your allies, barbaric, who was one of the closest allies of America after Israel in the Middle East

But this time you're telling me the truth

No, I'm going to question

I'm not saying you're

Lying right

I'm not saying anyone is lying

Joe Rogan

But that's a thing where under crisis people do not like people questioning the narrative because the narrative may offer us relief from this uncomfortable moment we find ourselves currently in, and we all collectively look to something to help us out of this

And for a lot of people, it's a vaccine, so the vaccines became this this thing that you are not allowed to challenge

And even though we have this dodgy history with the pharmaceutical companies you're supposed to ignore that

Maajid Nawaz

Like religion?

Joe Rogan

You're supposed to completely put that on the back

Maajid Nawaz

Burner well well, this is where again you can't undo what I know about this right so?

Let's try another one

Can you look up who paid the largest criminal fine in history?

Thank you Jamie

Sorry to give you orders

But who paid the so?

The assumption that that pharmaceutical companies are acting in your best interest, just like the assumption that the CIA, when it encourages these things, vaccination programs in, say, Pakistan is acting in your best interest is an assumption that has to be interrogated

Now we know here in America, the opioid crisis

That that that the that the medical establishment was was abused and the opioid crisis here in the states ended up killing more people than

The AIDS crisis

Yeah, now pharmaceuticals make a lot of money

Out of this and so with The Who paid the largest criminal fine in history, you'll probably get 2 results, depending on your search engine

And though you don't need to put in the word who paid the largest pharmaceutical fine in history

You can just say who paid the largest criminal fine in history and you'll get Glaxo Smith, Kline and Pfizer

And the difference is, I think the difference was that Glaxo Smith Kline have paid the largest accumulative fine and Pfizer it's paid the largest fine in one big go

Yeah, and you can go to something called the violation tracker since the year 2000 it documents all of the criminal and simonal

Civil violations that Pfizer has been found on the wrong side of and has paid fines for

And so this assumption that pharmacy big pharmaceutical companies are acting in our best interests again is an assumption that has to be interrogated because it's during an emergency where debate is being silenced that it becomes incredibly important to ask these questions

Yes, otherwise it gets snuck in and you can never undo it

Joe Rogan

And when you were

Working at the BBC, you started doing what you always do is you're questioning narratives

You're discussing ideas openly and objectively

What kind of pushback you?

Maajid Nawaz

Getting so it was LBC OLB

Yeah which is it's the so they part of a global is the largest commercial radio group in the UK and they have music channels and and what have you and then one of them was the talk radio side called LBC

And I was having these sorts of conversations and without going into whatever you know, 'cause I'm not no longer there

So like that for legal reasons I don't wanna get into what specifically happened

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

What I will say is I was scheduled to go on the very next weekend after returning from my Christmas break in Tennessee

And a day before my schedule was, I had a weekend show I was doing really well

You know, imagine a weekend lunchtime

When everyone should be in their in their restaurants, having a good time having their bloody Marys having their Sunday roasts and I was getting over half a million listeners on a weekend lunchtime for only two shows a week and it went from a graveyard shift to being a really you know respected slot

One day before reappearing this this month

They told me that my services were no longer required, but the

Well, Paul isn't in dispute

The indispensable part is my contract

Was on until April

But I'm not there anymore

Joe Rogan

Did they have a conversation with you at any point in time before that where they're like?

Well, you probably can't talk about that

Maajid Nawaz

I can't see why that yeah, yeah, but but but I know that what I will say is what?

Joe Rogan

Yeah, yeah

Maajid Nawaz

Why people other people outside of my then bosses were upset with me including in the organization was because we were having

I was having these sorts of conversations I'm having with you that that CIA Pakistan thing multiple times mentioned it on my show

I actually physically pulled out my phone and asked my listeners to Google who paid the largest

Criminal find in history and had them call in

Yep Pfizer, Pfizer Pfizer you know so

That kind of conversation where I'm trying to, by the way, all while being double jacked, I am right

I got two Pfizer vaccinations right, so people still throwing anti vaccine labels at me

Yeah, and this is the problem

It's like the Southern Poverty Law Center called me an anti Muslim extremist whoa

And they listed me as an anti Muslim extremist at the same time

There's a

There's a database called Thomson Reuters World

Check all the banks

All the large accountancy firms, all the big money firms in Wall Street in the City of London

They all subscribe to World check because if you have a bank account they wanna make sure that you're not funding terrorism

So World Check is a database that categorizes used to whether you're clean or not

When it comes to finances from a terrorism lens

I'm I'm probably the only person you'll meet on the planet that was simultaneously listed by World Check

Thomson Reuters under category

Red terrorism

As a Muslim terrorist while listed at the same time by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti Muslim extremist


Joe Rogan

But didn't they say Sam was one of?

Maajid Nawaz

Those two they didn't list him, but was he?

A Jan was a Jan

The only person you'll meet on the planet that was simultaneously listed by World Check Thomson Reuters under category

Red terrorism

As a Muslim terrorist while listed at the same time by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti Muslim extremist

Joe Rogan

Right, but didn't they say Sam was one of those?

Maajid Nawaz

Two, they didn't list him, but was he a Jan was a Jan was listed

So what I did is I sued them both

And I got I won against Thomson Reuters World Check they had to publicly apologize in court, remove that defamation and they pay damages

And I sued the Southern Poverty Law Center

That didn't get to court because before disclosure, they publicly put out a a video, apologize and pay damages

But what that story serves to tell you is that when you question these things today, it's so lazy and easy to throw labels at people

So being double jabbed, they call me an

Anti VAX are

Being a Muslim that had literally gone to jail for my faith, they were calling me an anti Muslim extremist

And this is how absurd these people are that you disagree with somebody

And instead of trying to engage with the substance of your point, they want to throw a label at you and hope it sticks

Joe Rogan

And isn't this just what happens when people get into power and by say, when I say into power, I'm not just talking about government, I'm also talking about people that have accepted a certain narrative and find that there's a lot of other people that are along

I'm with them in this same narrative and they have these media pylons like social media pylons where they attack people and like you call you an anti VAX or even though you've been vaccinated the same thing with Eric Clapton

They were angry at Eric Clapton because he spoke openly about his very extreme vaccine side effects

Just speaking openly as a person who was vaccinated and they called him a vile anti vaccine

Maajid Nawaz

Well, the question is why right?

And it's to shut debate down now, why would you want to shut debate down?

There's, I think there's a deeper point here, and that is that

We've just we just come out of a time

Where for a long time

Moral and

Let's just say relativism

Whether it's moral or otherwise

Relativism this idea that truth is relative

This idea that that it's all subjective that everything is personal experience that's being promoted

Yeah, there's no such thing as reality

Whether it comes down to defining

A man or woman?

And we spoke about this last time I was here with with

Well, it was there in California, but with Sam as well

We spoke about the the trans debate in Maryland woman

Whether it's defining a man and a woman, whether it's anything else, this idea that actually truth is all personally subjective

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

When you, when you promote the idea that there's no such thing as truth

And when you shut down debate that is seeking truth, not that it claims truth, but is seeking it

When you shut that debate down

In eight of this idea that truth is relative

Like those for example, who now know the science that the COVID vaccination doesn't stop or or or doesn't stop infection or transmission and doesn't reduce it beyond 12 weeks

The booster shot, by the way is 8 weeks

But having known that and they still insist on vaccine passports, it's it's no longer about seeking the truth for them

The truth is relative, and it serves a purpose

What happens when you do that?

When there's no such thing as truth, you can't define reality

And when you can't define reality, the only thing that matters is power

Your father now with your child children who can't reason like my my kids five

I mean his reasoning abilities are great, but he's 5 right?

It's why you say to the child because I said so do it

It's good for you because they don't know how to reason yet

Yeah, and you try and if something is too complex you say I'll explain another time, but right now you have to listen to your father

Don't do this when you can't

When there's no such thing as truth because everything is relative, the only thing that matters is power, because power gets to define reality

And this brings us to the hybrid war we're in right now

And that's why people that are in power

Who are seeking a specific outcome from the world that we're in?

Want to shut debate down what they're not interested in is seeking truth

What they're interested in is shutting that debate down

Because power steps into that void when reason no longer exists and gets to define reality for you from up above

And it's why it's so important in a dictatorship that the only thing you have left when all your power is taken from you is the truth

And if you read Orwell, if you look at 1984, it's why he spends so much time

Talking about how

The power he was writing about in that in that fictional account is attempting to redefine reality, redefine the past, redefine the future because if if you can't hold on to reality, you have no premise

To scrutinize the government for whether they're telling you the truth or not

And it's really it is a war

In that sense, hybrid war

So information in that war becomes your most powerful weapon

Now most people don't have the privilege

Of researching these debates, foreign policy War on Terror, COVID whatever it is, people don't have the privilege because they're working nine to five hour minimum wage and they're hungry and they're and they're just busy trying to live and survive what they normally do is they outsource their thinking on where the truth lies to trusted voices in the media

So it's why it becomes so important

To manipulate the media so that those trusted voices that people are looking to are no longer giving them at least the best understanding of the truth they have, but are also peddling the agenda of power when you're in a situation like that

It becomes difficult to define reality and therefore difficult to challenge government

On whether or not they are sticking to their promises because everything gets shifted, everything is relative

The Overton window keeps moving

The goal posts keep shifting

If you remember back in at the beginning of this we were told 2 weeks

Whatever it was flat and flatten the curve


Flatten the curve in yet

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, now look at us two years later and

We're still, we look at Montreal

Joe Rogan

There's still locked down right now

They can't go out

Maajid Nawaz

At 10:00 o'clock yeah, the goal posts keep shifting and you're expected to forget what you

Were told last

Time in the UK

We were told specifically 2 weeks and then it went from 2 weeks to flatten the curve to we're only going to just wait in lockdown and we by the way we had a national lockdown

Very long one

Yeah, we're all confined to our homes and they said, just wait, we're going to inoculate the most vulnerable

Just think of Granny don't kill Granny, yeah?

So by the way my grandmother died in all of this, so again, I'm not anti grandmother

Yeah, I wasn't allowed to attend her on her deathbed while the Prime Minister and all of his special advisers and all of the cabinet were drinking with cheese and wine parties in Downing St

Breaking all the rules which has all come out now in the press

And it's not just me

Many people in the UK went through that horrific experience

We couldn't even visit our dying relatives

And they were partying

Meanwhile, the health secretary caught on video camera having an affair in his office in government offices

Right Matt Hancock

So we went through that whole lockdown

It went from 2 weeks to flatten the curve to OK, just wait until we just vaccinate the vulnerable

Then it was. We're just just wait. We're going to vaccinate everyone over 40, which is when I originally got it right and I'm 44. Then it was just wait until we vaccinate all the adults and get hurt at herd immunity

Then they shifted the goalpost again, just wait until we vaccinate the kids

Now the JCVI in the UK, the Joint Committee for Vaccination and Immunisation failed, did not recommend to the government they failed to recommend vaccinating children. Government went ahead anyway, saying no no, no we have to vaccinate the kids

You keep shifting the goal posts like 1984 George Orwell

And you keep telling people gaslighting the people

That's not what we said

No, no, no, no

It's not

We didn't just say wait until we did, you know, vaccinate

No, you're getting it wrong kept gaslighting the people

Shifting the definition of reality

Playing with people's memories

That that serves a purpose in this hybrid war, in which information is the weapon

It serves a purpose because you've got to

You've got to disorient, confuse, and create self doubt in the citizen, so they no longer have the strength to question government

For what they said and what they didn't deliver or what they did deliver when they weren't meant to

And that's how you, that's how you stymie or handicap any opposition

And in the UK, again, because there was a bipartisan consensus, even the opposition party like with Iraq

They kept saying to every crisis the solution was harsher restrictions, harsher restrictions

In the end people, the only way when you're in that situation where you've been locked in your homes where the state's telling you have to get injected or you lose your job right?

When you've lost all your rights, even by law, because the Emergency Act came in and we, we weren't even legally allowed to oppose any of this

In the end, you're in a situation the only way people get their rights back from tyranny is by taking them through activism

You never in that situation the state never just gives your rights back

Now when I say taking them, I mean civil action

I mean protests

I mean activism

I don't mean violence

But that's why if you look at the example of England

Unlike Wales in Scotland there were huge protests and a lot of voices, not just mine were fierce on this to a point where

England had to, you know, they they couldn't, they just retreated on all of this now

And all of that everything I've been saying, you take up masks

You take lockdowns, you take mandatory vaccines and I've only ever been opposed the mandates by the way, right?

It's only about mandates for me whether you define mandates as lockdowns or mask mandates or vaccine mandates

For me it's the force bit that I don't like

I'm double jabbed again to remind everyone

But everything we were saying that mask mandates are useless that the virus particles are millions of times smaller than the cloth masks they were telling everybody to use

That testing continuously was actually making the problem worse

The PCR tests were unreliable

They ditched the PCR tests that lockdowns

Did anyone ever think of what we call an impact assessment?

They're going to lock you in your homes to save X number of lives

Does that kill Y number of people more?

In other words, does it kill more people than we're saving?

'cause if you were opposed to the lockdowns in those days?

Oh you wanna kill Granny?

And my question was if I save one Granny AM

Joe Rogan

I killing ten isn't the way to find that out to look at overall death, yeah, and whether or not it changes year after year after year

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, we have, uh, so this is the interesting point, I'm

So since being we'll get to what I'm doing next in terms of my media work, but very quickly I started a sub stack after I my services were no longer required and and one of the things I put up in there

The last one I wrote

Is this idea that this Owens distich the Office for National Statistics that came out with the Freedom of Information request and they said yeah, 17,000 whatever it was, 730 whatever people died from only from Kovid since the beginning of this pandemic, right?

And we were told it's hundreds of thousands, but there is a spike in all 'cause mortality

Now if it's not from COVID

What's causing it? That's a question that remains open the times of London reported that there's been a 25% spike in heart attacks in Scotland

Professor Norman Fenton

And Professor Neil from Queen Mary, Westfield University in London, part of the University of London

Have looked at this and said there's a five year high in all 'cause mortality

Now, if there's a 25% spike in heart attacks in Scotland that are as of yet unexplained, there's a five year spike in all 'cause mortality but COVID deaths

Are similar to flu deaths

Then what's causing all these excess deaths?

Joe Rogan

Well, how many of those people survive COVID and then had heart attacks later?

'cause that is one of the side effects of COVID is blood clots heart issues

Maajid Nawaz

So Professor Fenton and I, you know, I I say he's done the research, not me

All I'm saying is floating the question saying these need answers

He said that that these specific spikes in deaths were specifically

Joe Rogan


After vaccination and were those people also infected with COVID?

Maajid Nawaz

I don't think I don't think so from memory, but I'd have to look at that

Joe Rogan

'cause that's a

Maajid Nawaz

But that isn't so from memory

Joe Rogan

That's the big distinction when it comes to myocarditis and all these different things

Like what if, yeah what if you have both?

You know, like what if it's an issue that where they got a bad case of COVID even though they were vaccinated?

Maajid Nawaz

If it

Joe Rogan

What do you?

Maajid Nawaz

Blame it on that, so if so, so to break that question down, we have to look at with COVID and off COVID deaths as well, right?

So the

The health secretary

And so, by the way, these talking points that you've obviously heard over the last two years, every single one of them in the UK has now been conceded to this whole distinction

Death of COVID with COVID

Joe Rogan

Just they're doing that now

It's fascinating to watch even the CDC, including the debate about natural immunity

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, every single one of them

Joe Rogan

It's being

It's almost like they've gotten to the point where to maintain future credibility, to have to admit these absolute truths that everyone else already knows

Maajid Nawaz

So the health secretary in the UK came out and admitted that the COVID deaths had been overestimated because there's been a mix between

With COVID and off COVID right, we also know that again memory Yep, so forgive me if this is off, but from memory 2/3 of COVID cases were caught after hospital admission rather than because of COVID

Joe Rogan

Right there, hospitalized for something else, and then that's a big thing with young people, right?

Maajid Nawaz

They get COVID in hospital

Now if you put all of that together and you recognize that there's 17,000 roughly deaths, only of COVID, and there's this spike five year spike in all 'cause mortality

It wouldn't make sense to say did they have COVID as well when we know that only 17,000 only one death is too many, but 17,000 died only of COVID, and that a lot of these people were getting COVID in hospital, right?

And it's a similar thing like I'm going to show you this can we?

Can we do something the Independent newspaper?

Yeah, there's this multi

A gold medalist, Olympic Olympian weightlifter from Hungary

His name was Sylvester something, but if you look up the independent anti VAX gold medalist dead, this is today's news, right?

I've got it here as well because I put it out earlier

Joe Rogan

You could AirDrop that to Jamie if you'd

Like oh here we go

Maajid Nawaz

There is right look at that headline, see see that

Joe Rogan

He's still ready

Headline yeah, anti VAX Olympic gold medalists?

Sylvester solid, you know how to say his name

Maajid Nawaz

I think Sylvester solenni

Joe Rogan

Teacher kvell so he died of COVID age 51, and they're calling him an anti

Maajid Nawaz

VAX, Yep

Now if you Scroll down please Sir Jamie Scroll down to that, go up, hit hit you have

To you have

Joe Rogan

Drugeon keep reading

Maajid Nawaz

To oh OK, so I've got it on my phone

Can I send it to you?

How do?

Joe Rogan

I do that

Actually you might not be able to because

It's is this on a thumb

Can he air?

Maajid Nawaz

I'll I'll try later, hit that, I'll try later, hit the I'll try later and you'll get to the article

Yeah, there we are right now

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

If you go down to yeah, there we are wild so that that paragraph wild card slowly had, according to the publication paragraph above it, yeah

Joe Rogan

He contacted the virus soon after receiving his jab

Maajid Nawaz

Do you see that?

Joe Rogan

So they called him an anti VAX are

Maajid Nawaz

Six time World championship medalist had been vaccinated to allow him to continue work as a gymnastics coach

Joe Rogan

What he's been vaccinated

Maajid Nawaz

However, he contracted the virus soon after receiving his jab and the headline called him an anti VAX are

And says he dies

Now this is the manipulation that's been going on

This is from today's press

It's still

Joe Rogan

Going here not built sufficient levels of antibodies

Maajid Nawaz

So he was jabbed so back to your question

What's causing this spike five year spike in all 'cause mortality?

Joe Rogan

Well, how crazy is it that that's how they decide to portray him?

They they

Maajid Nawaz

Make the headline they are

Joe Rogan

I mean, that's that's folly, right?

They make him look

Like a fool

It's deceit, yeah?

Well, it's it's this narrative that they want to

Push where whenever someone questions whether it's

Eric Clapton or yourself or anyone

They'll call you an antivaxxer

Maajid Nawaz

This man was jabbed

Joe Rogan

It's such a yeah

Maajid Nawaz

Now, so why I showed you that is back to that question

If they die after the vaccination, one of the things Norman Fenton professor from Queen Mary Westfield in response to your question at did they have COVID too, right? It's first of all, we know the COVID deaths are 17,000 so

And we know the majority of hospitalized cases of COVID were caught after hospitalization

We also know in his study he says they died soon after the vaccination

Right now you wanna you wanna look at this and now I'm not

I'm not giving you a reason for why there's an all five year spike

I'm saying these questions as somebody that works in media

These questions demand answers

And he's looked at this and he said Professor Fenton and Neil from Queen Mary's and they've said

These deaths were soon after vaccination

This spike right and they're saying their view is they have to interrogate whether the vaccination itself, whether it caused myocarditis or any other negative reaction that's caused this spike in deaths, and that by the way, that spike

It could then be you go to hospital and you catch COVID in hospital, but that's not

The reason you're in hospital

We already know that


Maajid Nawaz

So these are all in ordinary times

Whether it's with a thalidomide scandal that historically led to babies being born, you know, without their limbs intact

Whether it's you know the CIA example I gave

You, with the hepatitis B fake vaccination program in Pakistan

Whether it's the Tuskegee experimentation or African Americans, here we know this malpractice occurs

Right, we know that abuse has happened historically

Now here you've got a vaccine that has just been rolled out, hasn't been tested in the long term, and we've got some alarming figures of all cause spike in mortality

And we know in instances that there is a side effect of death, as in the case of BBC journalist Lisa Shaw, who the coroner ruled specifically died because of Astra Zeneca

The vaccine

So there are multiple questions here that demand answers, but asking those questions without drawing conclusions

By the way, I have never on air discouraged anybody to get the vaccine

People used to call it as a

Calling show members of the public would call in

Imagine sitting there for three hours

Yeah, I give a monologue for 20 minutes and then I'm open season

Anyone can call and interrogate me

It's good for practice in debates, but point is people would call up and say should I get the jab magic?

I'd say I'm not a doctor

I can't advise you

I'm talking about mandates because I tell you one thing, I am as a postgraduate of political theory

I understand how political systems work and my concern is more on a macro level

These questions about deaths

What I'm concerned about is that the people who ask these questions suddenly you find they lose their jobs

They become stigmatized

And that kind of behavior I've seen happen before because that's what happens in tyranny when he questioned authority

It's what happened to us, and it's what these great historical literary figures have always advised us to question

Whether it's or well, whether it's the Gulag archipelago, whether it's Solzhenitsyn, whether it's, and we have that experience because of the Soviet Union

Right, we understand darkness at noon, right? These books are catch 22. Joseph Heller about the absurdity of rules and bureaucracy that don't make sense

The entire point of these books is to teach us do not just succumb to whatever the bureaucracy is telling you, but ask questions where things don't make sense

And when people are trying to shut those debates down

That says more to me about what's going on than anything

Joe Rogan

Else isn't it universal though in terms of like world government, there's not world government that I'm aware of that's very open about what's going on about failures and mistakes and not understanding the information correctly because they were under an assumption that proved to be incorrect

It's essentially across the board and isn't part of that, just managing some sort of large scale

Pandemic with a large population of people and trying to make sense of it all, yeah, and trying to figure out how do you manage that and you have to have two different things going on

You have to have actual solutions like medication and you also have to have optics

You have to give the people the impression that you're managing this and you're working very hard to figure this out

And you've come to some uncomfortable conclusions, and you've made some decisions that maybe you're going to upset people, but they're going to help everyone overall

Maajid Nawaz

So we need to go to the origins of COVID to see again on a global level

Then were they acting in good faith right now?

All the evidence currently indicates no

Joe Rogan

And when you say they who do you mean?

Maajid Nawaz

By that people in power

Joe Rogan

All the people in power acting in bad

Maajid Nawaz

Faith, the people in power that are interacting in our reality don't

Joe Rogan

I mean, when we're talking about like leaks and emails that have been exposed when you talk about conversations between people that work in the Wuhan lab and those are being exposed to us very recently

I'm under no impression that politicians were aware of these emails before us

Maajid Nawaz

So the lab leak let's

Talk through that example, yeah

So one thing we can say, I think quite fairly is I doubt fauci's acting in the best possible way. He should be acting

Right, so he knew about this slab leak thing from the very beginning and the leaks that have now come out

Even the DARPA leaks themselves indicate that they attempted to suffocate this story

In the UK

We have a similar example, Lancet, which is a very well respected medical journal

One of the guys

That would actually the guy that fauces federal funding supported his name's Peter Daszak Eco Health Alliance. He's a Brit

And they were the ones engaged in gain of function research in Wuhan in that lab

Now there was a letter very early on and I was from the beginning

I was questioning the lab leak thing

And again, getting into trouble for doing so, but this is before any of the leaks, but there was still evidence to

Indicate something wasn't right

Joe Rogan

Bret Weinstein talked about it on my podcast very early on, but he's an evolutionary biologist

Maajid Nawaz

Here, oh, that's right

I had put on my show

Yeah, yeah, absolutely

Exactly, yeah

Joe Rogan

He understood the actual

Maajid Nawaz

And that's why I got him on my show as well

There's a video of him on my show talking about this, right?

Now, what what happened is that this guy that Valci was funding Peter Daszak in the Eco Health alliance

That's not in dispute that they receive federal funding

Fauci in Congress testified and said it wasn't gaining function so that Senator Rumples

Sort of hearings

And the leaks have subsequently indicated that they did know that this funding was being used in the lab in Wuhan to make this virus sticky

To make it stronger and to make it you know, work for humans to actually infect humans

Now Peter Daszak again very early on our Co authored a letter in The Lancet, which is a very respected medical journal in the UK

In which

Before these leaks came out

They declared that anybody who questions whether this was leaked from a lab is a conspiracy theorist, and it was signed by a number of doctors and it was among them Peter Daszak

Peter deserts the guy that got the funding to do

This work at the bottom of all medical journal articles, you have to declare an interest

Are there any conflicts and they said we have no conflicts of interest?

So here you've got that these guys wrote a hit piece calling anybody like Brett who questioned whether it's a lab leak, a conspiracy theorist

While obviously it's him Peter Daszak receiving funding to do that very work, writing a piece in a medical journal smearing those who are attempting to uncover whether he'd received funding to do that very

Work I think I'm qualified enough in the human

In in human nature, at least, to be able to say

He wasn't acting in our best

Joe Rogan

Interests a conflict

Maajid Nawaz

That's a conflict and that you see from the very beginning of this thing

It happened with everything we were saying

Lab leak, masks, lockdowns, mandates

Eventually, the truth came out, but it had to be thoughtful, so that tells me that the people that were attempting to suffocate this truth, at least not everybody but the people that were involved in suffocating the truth and smearing dissidents while knowing

Because the leaks indicate that they knew right, they weren't acting in our best interests, and I think that's a fair conclusion

To reach what were they doing, they were attempting to use this emergency to usher in a new way of doing things

Vaccine passports, even though in the UK and England at least now, we've dropped them in Ireland, followed suit

Czech Republic has followed suit

But it wasn't ever about you not being able to come in to say into this studio and infect me, because even after they learned that you could still infect me, the vaccine passports were still in place, but they've told us they meaning people in power have told us what they want to do next

So the UK is currently the head of the

G7 group that's the world's most economically advanced countries

And the UK currently chairs the G7 group. Our Chancellor, who does our economy called Chancellor of the Exchequer

His name is Rishi Sunak

He's put out this video

This is all my feeds by the way my social feeds

He put out this video saying that what they want to do is bring in

This thing, called the central banking digital currency

They want to replace Fiat paper money with digital money as a competitor to Bitcoin and crypto money, right?

But instead of being a decentralized currency, it will be controlled by a government

It's digital currency, but controlled centrally through the banks Bank of England

So instead of having a bank account with whatever HSBC or Bank of America

You have a bank account directly within the American context, with the Fed in the UK directly with the Bank of England you have a personal bank account and you're given digital money in that bank account

These are called central banking digital currencies. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in the UK has already announced their intention to do this as the G7 group

These are if you look up

Joe Rogan

It sounds terrifying

Maajid Nawaz

If you look up the Telegraph newspaper


Pretty Googled it, there's a lot of headlines about it, but

Maajid Nawaz

Yep, there's a specific article in the Telegraph programmable digital currency, yeah?

If you can't find it, I'll pull it out from my Twitter feed and we can

We can talk through it on my feed, but

While he's looking for that, I'll talk you through it

So one of these

Joe Rogan

Central Bank Digital courtesy currency

That is that the one down below

Maajid Nawaz

Is that the one the digital currency should be programmable?

See that one there

Yeah, he's looking at it even on the search it says the word programmable top search result

Yep, third

Line down, Yep, should be programmable programming


I I was seeing that

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, now

See again, there's a paywall, but maybe

Joe Rogan

Start your free, yeah?

Maajid Nawaz

But you can see the word there, right programming in the headline. Now what they're doing is they're saying that this digital currency, once you're you, 'cause you know everyone, knows that with inflation at over 5% is now 5 point

4%, right?

Our Fiat money

The paper money is increasingly becoming worthless and we're headed towards a big disaster there

The Fed wants to raise interest rates

But we're in so much debt that if you raise interest rates, people are going to suffer because everyone that you know we're living on debt as Western economies

So they realize that this kind of the lifespan of paper money is fast coming to an end because of the 2008 economic crash in particular

So they're bringing in these central banking digital currencies

Why is that word programmable in there?

So what they said in that article, and that, and the chance of put a video

Out saying this as well, they said right?

Think back to what vaccine passports were

Yeah, if you don't have your job, you can't even eat in this restaurant what they've said and why the word programmable was in that headline was they've said

That this money that you will earn from work instead of having paper money you have this digital money

It's programmable so that you can't buy certain foods or if you do something that your employer doesn't like, it's all in that article

You won't be able to spend your money

In other words, it's not money, they're vouchers

They're like food vouchers and they can be programmed so that, like the Chinese social credit system, that if you try and use them on a certain thing it won't work

You say you want to buy a burger and they want you to buy bugs

Which is one of the examples used

If you start to try and buy unhealthy meat, just won't work

You tap, you tap your card

You can't buy the thing because you've met your quota that month of burgers

You have to buy something like a vegan

Joe Rogan

Meal so it won't just be money in this sense of the way we have dollars or pounds today, it'll be something that's controlled in terms of your ability to distribute it

Maajid Nawaz

Which is why I'm calling it a voucher

It's a coupon

Joe Rogan

But even a coupon if you have a coupon to buy bread, you can still buy the bread like there's no

Maajid Nawaz

But you can't buy see that coupon to buy bread

What you can't do is buy a burger with that coupon

It's for bread

Joe Rogan

Right, right?

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, so essentially so you will have this central banking digital currency, and then what they're talking about in that article that we just pulled up is that they'll say right, and it explicitly uses the words won't be used on something that the employer deems inappropriate or the state deems inappropriate

Joe Rogan

Oh, we gotta see this

See see if we can find that


Or I'm just digging through a different article about it too

Maajid Nawaz

Gonna also yeah


Talking about, it's gonna


There's pilot programs going to be used in the Olympics coming up in China


They've already started it and

Joe Rogan

Right now you do, you feel like you're sounding the alarm, or people that don't understand what the **** is going on

Maajid Nawaz

So hey, I'll put it out for you here, yeah, so there's the video

Yeah, I don't

Know if your camera can see that, but no

There's the video there's him speaking about it


The G7 is launching a set of public policy principles for retail Central bank digital currencies, CBD


Central bank digital currencies could be a digital version of money, a bit like a digital banknote that could be used


Alongside physical

Maajid Nawaz

Right, so that's the guy who runs our economy in the UK, names the Chancellor of the Exchequer

And here is the

Article Bank of England tells Ministers to intervene on digital currency programming

Yeah, and here's a quote from the article

This isn't the Telegraph, the one he pulled up, but it was behind a paywall, so I'll just read the quote

Digital cash could be programmed to ensure it is only spent on essentials

Or goods which an employer or government deems to be sensible

Joe Rogan

Holy ****

Maajid Nawaz

Now I'm going to take it one step further for Joe, right, so?

The vaccine passport infrastructure is in place, but now we know that the vaccine doesn't stop infection or transmission, but the checkpoint Charlie exists everywhere

They bring in digital banking, central banking, digital currencies

You've got a scenario now that you're checking in and out everywhere you go using vouchers that are programmed and you can only spend where you're told you can spend them

There's another word for that man that's called the Chinese social credit system

That's what it's called and anyone who watches Black Mirror will know what I'm talking about

That's that TV show, right?

Yeah, So what they are telling us and might say they who's they people in power

That's the head of our economy, the Chancellor of the Exchequer

Second, most powerful person other than the Prime Minister and maybe the Foreign Secretary in the UK, right?

He's telling us I just played it there for you

He's telling us that's what?

He as the UK, the head of the G7 want to bring in for the G7

So a scenario where, like in New York at the moment, because the the passport infrastructure is in place, you bring in that digital currency and you've got this total control

And if I'm speaking to you, the way I'm speaking now and my employer or government, you heard that in the quote directly year Deans me is saying or doing something inappropriate

Suddenly I can't actually pay to come here and speak to you anymore

My my digital currency won't even pay for the ticket because it will be known that I'm coming to speak to you

Sorry your vouchers don't allow you to purchase that ticket to go and speak

So a scenario where, like in New York at the moment, because the the passport infrastructure is in place, you bring in that digital currency and you've got this total control

And if I'm speaking to you, the way I'm speaking now and my employer or government, you heard that in the quote directly, yeah, deems me as saying or doing something inappropriate

Suddenly, I can't actually pay to come here and speak to you anymore

My my digital currency won't even pay for the ticket because it will be known that I'm coming to speak to you

Sorry your your vouchers don't allow you to purchase that ticket to go and speak to John

Joe Rogan

And this is where we get into the kind of censorship that we see in social media

That is not

It's not

You can't have that kind of censorship with the 1st amendment

In normal discourse, but you can have that kind of censorship if you've developed a digital platform that distributes information, but it's a private company, so think about what money is, where you can spending on spending on whatever you want versus this digital currency, which is essentially controlled in a

In a sense, like you have free speech on Twitter, but you really don't

Yeah, 'cause if you go too far or you talk about something that they don't find appropriate, they'll just ban your account

That could be what we're looking at in terms of the what we think of as free speech

Being social media platforms could be what we think of as the your free range, ability to buy whatever you want with whatever money that you've earned

Maajid Nawaz

We're in a moment in history and This is why I said to you what I can speak to you about with a bit more authority than even the science debate

And I've done my homework on the science debate I had to because I had a live show and I was interrogated by the public for three hours on a call in show, I had to have done my homework and the way you've seen me be able to pull out my receipts

Yeah, that's what I had to do on the show, but put the signs aside

Like where I will speak with a level of authority

Is political theory, right?

I'm a postgraduate in that, and I spent my entire life involved in in political structures and political activism and thinking about social contracts now

What what's going on here is with this central banking digital currency

If you get to if you get to that situation where you end up with the Chinese social credit system in the West, why?

Why would anyone want to do that, right?

I believe we're in a moment of the Gutenberg press

Go back to when the printing press was invented

Technology disrupts power structures

It always has printing and its invention was a new technology

What happened when they invented the printing press?

The power structures?

Who up until that point were reading the Bible for you

And we're telling you that you got to pay this priest

X amount of favors and he will forgive you your sins, and that became a bribery system, right?

Which is what Martin Luther was so upset about when he pinned his thesis to the to the, to the, to the, to the wall

The printing press disrupted that power dynamic where people could read the Bible for themselves, and they began realizing that the power structures were manipulating what was written to control people

Now, nobody in hindsight is going to argue that printing and its invention is a bad thing for humanity

But at the time it led to war, it led to the 30 years war in Europe

Because it disrupted power so much that people began rising up and it led to this 30 year period of war, which eventually led to the Reformation and the rest is history, right?

What's today's Gutenberg press?

The Internet

The decentralization of information and then, because of that, the Internet, the decentralization of currency in the form of crypto is disrupting power because the way that after

The revolution of the Reformation

The printing press control was still possible, though obviously not to that level, which is why we no longer have those absolute monarchies, but control in a nation state context were still possible to an extent because the money supply was controlled

Now what's happening is that the invention of the Internet with the decentralization of information, and in particular here, the decentralization of

Currency in the form of cryptocurrencies is disrupting those power hierarchies, and it's leading to this conflict now, and we're in a moment when the printing press was invented, the powers that be needed to try and hold on to that power

As the 30 years war kicked off, they eventually lost it, but to hold on to it they became very brutal

Because they were losing their grip on power

Today this is what I believe we're witnessing

It's not about vaccine passports, this was a red herring

To have the infrastructure in place that you can have a checkpoint Charlie society so that when the central banking digital currencies are in place, that infrastructure is already there because people were so scared they voluntarily allowed you to put that in place so that you can maintain your grip on power

Because what's coming around the corner is the decentralization of everything of media

Therefore, of narrative and of course remember whoever defines the truth gets to define reality

Decentralization of narratives, decentralization of the economy through crypto

You no longer have the power to define the story and control the money supply, so the powers that be who are losing that power need to clamp down the clamping down on their own children

Because we are people who are born off the West

So it's an internal civil war in a hybrid war context

Over truth and over information

Centralization versus decentralization

Basically, it's no longer about left or right, it's about up versus down

It's about power versus those who don't have power

Joe Rogan

Do you think if there was no cryptocurrency, if there was no Bitcoin, Bitcoin or any of the other crypto coins that they would attempt to do some sort of digital currency?

Do you think that this is a response to the?

Understanding that that decentralized digital currency is eventually going to take over or has gained far more momentum than they ever anticipated

Maajid Nawaz

I think so, and also decentralized media

Because you can't control the narrative right

See how easy it was to convince everybody initially that the Iraq war was needed, right?

Now you got a point today where they haven't been able to convince people of their measures that they wanted to bring in when COVID struck because it was quicker to be able to unpick that narrative due to decentralization

Shows like this that weren't under the traditional yoke of traditional media

We're able to have certain conversations

Now that means that it's harder to control the narrative and so

In a situation like that, when you're losing your grip and power, the only option you have left is to clamp down

And and I'm so sorry to say, but that means like the 30 years war in Europe after the printing press was invented, we may be be in for a bit of a

Rough ride ahead, but we are literally facing a crossroads

Do we go down the direction of centralization or decentralization?

It's obvious where I stand

I think ultimately, like happened eventually after the wars of 30 years war

Eventually people need to be respected and they will win

They will win this and we'll end up with a better future

But there's going to be some short term pain

Joe Rogan

And what do you mean by that?

Maajid Nawaz

There will be another emergency, whether it's war with Russia, which is already being played

Up whatever it is, whether it's the crash of the economy, 'cause the Fiat, when the inflation at 5.4%, at least in the UK, it's 5.4%. Here on no self control here as well

If the currency collapses because we're living on printed money at the moment, it's called quantitative easing

We are literally printing ourselves money to try and pay for our debt, which is printing more money

That's unsustainable, so we're in this situation where any other crisis could occur if the gas Putin controls Europe's gas supply

If there's a war with Ukraine, he cuts off the gas supply

There's a Nord Stream 2 pipeline that services Germany, but also other European countries are dependent on Russian gas

So if he shuts off the gas supply, you end up with food shortages

Now you can go one or two ways

If there's riots because people are

That's a perfect pretext to bring in more draconian power to control society, and people will want it because nobody wants to live in

Like with riots, I mean people moving away from the West Coast in San Francisco, in particular because of some of the the crime problems there, right?

So people move away from that

But if you got food shortages everywhere and people end up rioting, it's a good reason to say right

We need more power to control this

We need more emergency powers

We need stronger laws

And so you end up in a situation where crises can be manipulated to bring in stronger and stronger authority, when really what's going on is we're in this crossroads in history

In history now we will get out of this because ultimately to numbers game and ultimately in times like this you end up fighting against your own sons, right?

It's those in power fighting their own people, and eventually the people up by sheer numbers

You know end up becoming the people in power, right?

So in the long run we may well end up in a decentralized world which will be much better

But as I say that to get there we have to get through this period

Of those in power attempting to to to to hold on to that power

Joe Rogan

Do you think it's possible that we won't get there and then we'll wind up?

In a more draconian centralized world

Maajid Nawaz

Everything is possible

Professor John Gray at the LSE questions the idea that history moves in a

Positive trajectory

He questions the idea that we're only ever going to get better and his his theory is in the context of liberalism

We must never take anything for granted, but it's why I've been so vocal because everything we've just spoken about

I've looked at this, I've had to reason myself out of totalitarian systems, and so when I see that what I joined kind of our values that we believe and hold dear to our civil liberties

What I sacrifice things to defend if the thing I'm defending is moving in that direction as well, I can see that

Pattern I can see the early warning signs

Hannah Arendt is a German Jewish philosopher was

She wrote

About the rise of totalitarianism in Germany to try and understand it, in fact, was one of the leading and 1st philosophers to try and dissect totalitarianism and how it emerged

And she coined this theory, which is everybody can look it up

It's called the banality

Of evil

And her basic point was she ended up living the her final years in Israel and she was really interested in understanding how ordinary, everyday nice people became Nazis

Yeah, and the banality of evil is her theory that explains and and and

The point was that

Actually, good people can do evil things

And they don't even realize they're doing them, and it's incremental

It's step by step, and each incremental step is justified for a common good

Until that, the like a proverbial frog being boiled alive in water

And because it's a frog and its skin temperature changes with the water, it doesn't realize it's being bored alive until it's too late and it dies with the boiling water it

Doesn't jump out

So that take that proverb that story

And apply it to Hannah Arendt's theory of the banality of evil that if you incrementally change step by step, you change society before you even realize it. You've got to a point that it's it's past. The point of no return

If that happens

It's it's very difficult to get out of that without external intervention

Joe Rogan

Well, you see this mindset that's very disturbing and online and social media

You see this mindset from people that

If you had talked to them four or five years ago, they would never advocate denying anyone medical

Help for diseases for something that they had caused, like say, obesity, something that was a personal choice they had made, or an addiction that they had to food or what have you

Drug addictions no no would ever deny medical treatment to those people you would never advocate for that, especially not publicly and openly

And then other an entire group

Especially now that we know what you said about how the vaccine at a certain point in time no longer stops transmission no longer stops infection

Like you're still giving it to people and you're still getting it, so if that is the case and we know that to be the case now

How can anybody in their right mind under good conscience, advocate that someone would be denied medical care because they didn't subscribe to the same thing you subscribe to 'cause they didn't take this?

Inoculation that you

Maajid Nawaz

Took right so we know that in Israel when you look at rates, so in terms of percentages now

Not just raw figures, but percentages, the rate

Of COVID is higher among the boosted than it is among the expected

Joe Rogan

But don't they have a much higher rate of boosted people?


Maajid Nawaz

Yeah, it's adjusted for percentages

Joe Rogan

OK, so even adjusted for, but they have a very low percentage of people that are unvaccinated right? Is it like less than 10%?

Maajid Nawaz

So you can sample that with control loops

It's low, it is low, but there are still some in Israel, but also in the UK

These studies have been done looking at percentages and rates prior to Omicron

Even in the UK, they found that the rate this is in fact in The Spectator magazine

You can put it up at the rate of COVID is higher among the vaccinated than the unvaccinated rate, not numbers

Joe Rogan

So what do they attribute that to?

Maajid Nawaz

I don't want to get into the science 'cause you can speak to people like Robert Malone as you've done and they can get into the science here at the questions as to whether, for example, one thing we do know is our health secretary admitted that it is not normal to roll out mass vaccination during a pandemic, because what that is said to encourage is mutated versions that can evade the vaccine


And there's a video of our health sector, even admitting that now we were saying that a long time ago that they're all admitting this stuff now, and there's something called AD which is antibody dependent

Enhancement that the virus could indeed through evolutionary processes, learn what to evade while it's still in its early stages of its first wave in its second wave, which is why what normally used to happen is you wait

For the three waves of a typical pandemic, before you start inoculating against that pandemic, but to try and inoculate in the middle of a virus, some scientists are saying only encourages antibody dependent enhancement

In other words, a mutated version that specifically targets the vaccinated because it's evolved to evade that spike protein

But take that science away, right?

And just let's discuss it from the idea that mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic, right?

You get to a point now where?

It's openly accepted in media narratives now that this vaccine doesn't stop infection or transmission, and there are articles explicitly saying that the rate of those vaccinated is higher than those who are unvaccinated

But they're still insisting on the vaccine passport, and they're still insisting on demonising

The unvaccinated now take Canada, a father

Was denied access to his child by a judge

Reported by the BBC denied access visiting rights to his child by a judge because he was unvaccinated on the request of the mother

What purpose does demonising the unvaccinated serve if the science is no longer supporting their arguments?

Yeah, what purpose does it serve to say?

You can't have an organ transplant if you're not vaccinated or deny you service in a hospital or will lock lock down only the unvaccinated

Now we know what we know

What purpose do these draconian measures serve?

The only thing that makes sense

In my mind is what we were talking about because they are very keen to make sure the infrastructure is there for the central banking digital currencies

For that you need

A checkpoint society to live in that digital world like China

Joe Rogan

So meaning

They need people to follow every step of what they're mandating, what the law is, what they're advocating for with no dissent

Maajid Nawaz

The unvaccinated are living proof that vaccine passports are illogical, so you have to demonize that living proof because you need the checkpoint in place

The vaccine passport

Not for stopping the virus

Joe Rogan

But but I don't think that the people that are advocating for this are in favor of or even aware of a digital no

Yeah, well, no, they're not, they're not

Maajid Nawaz

Not the everyday person, no, but that's what demonization it see

It serves to shut

Down rational, right?

Joe Rogan

But but here's my question, is this a conspiracy or is this a natural artifact of human behavior neither?

Maajid Nawaz

It's a revolution

How so in the wrong direction?

And there needs to be a council

Joe Rogan

Revolution how how so is it?

How is it a revolution?

Maajid Nawaz

This is a power grab so

Joe Rogan

Program, but is it always, uh?

But how is it a power grab if the people that are involved, like say, the the health experts, the people that are doctors and medical experts that are advocating for people to be vaccinated and boosted and for people to and, and maybe many who even are encouraging mandates for employees?

There's a lot of people that have no dog in the fight when it comes to a central digital currency

They don't even know about this

Yeah, So what makes them want all these things in your eyes?

Maajid Nawaz

Psychological operation military grade

Joe Rogan

Bihou, I'll read it for you

OK, is this the one from Canada?

Maajid Nawaz

No, this is now UK example

OK so we have a unit called SAGE which is a scientific advisory group that was formerly that's the committee that was advising government on pandemic policy

Yeah, it's called sage

One of the most prominent members on that was

Professor Susan michie

Professor Susan Michie, for 40 years, has been a member

Of the Communist Party

First point

And she's one of the most prominent members on the scientific advisory group in the UK that formulated that's the formal committee that formulated our pandemic response

This is from the Daily Mail on the 10th of June 2021 in an article by James Gant headlined social distancing and face masks. Should stay forever, says Communist Sage, Committee member Professor

Susan Michie now keep that point in mind

Joe Rogan

Social distancing and face masks should stay forever, yeah

Maajid Nawaz

Keep that point in mind and I'm

Going to make another point, not a real quote, yeah?

Joe Rogan

That's clickbait direct

Maajid Nawaz

It's not directly from the

Yeah, that's directly from her

It gets worse

Joe right?

Here's an article

Unknown 1

Here it is

Joe Rogan

Ever in all caps has Communist Sage Committee member Professor Susan Michie

She said we never used to pick up dog poo in the park but learn to overtime

Maajid Nawaz

Let's move to the next 'cause I'm going to build this case up for you 'cause I just I know I said something

Psychological military grade psychological operation I'm going to I, I promise you

I'll establish that statement step by step like this by showing you headlines every step of the way, yeah

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

The Telegraph reported on 14th of May 2021, in an article headlined

Use of fear to control behavior in COVID crisis was totalitarian. Admit scientists. These are people that left that group's age, and they came out and spoke like whistleblowers, and they said, we were using fear as government policy to psychologically manipulate the public right we call it PSYOPS psychological operations

To try and elicit that fear response

So in answer to your question as to why were people toeing the line they weren't involved in the power grab, it's because they were victims and targets of state sponsored psychological operations from the scientific committees that should have been looking after us

Now that article in the in the Telegraph, I said to

You is there for you

Everyone says that

That's a national newspaper in the UK

It's not even a fringe, it's a national broadsheet printed newspaper

The Prime Minister used to write for that newspaper

Yeah, the Telegraph

And as I say, that was the headline use of fear to control behavior in COVID crisis was totalitarian, admits scientists, members of the scientific pandemic influenza group on behaviour Express regret about unethical methods

Joe Rogan

Yeah, now it didn't

They use that, but they used that fear to try to get people to comply with what they thought was a good thing

The vaccination, or they're realizing now after the dust is settled that they have regret

Well, it

Joe Rogan

They express regret about unethical methods, but they're publicly expressing this regret

Maajid Nawaz

Yeah so

Joe Rogan

Yes, because they've come to this recognition so that

Doesn't seem like a conspiracy to me more than it feels like people under pressure

Maajid Nawaz

So this is not me saying it's a conspiracy

This is me saying why did every ordinary everyday people comply because of the fear that was deliberately stoked, yeah

Now we're going to carry on

So we've got a headline here on the 13th of January, 2022. This is this month. Yeah again in the Daily Mail ministers have used propagandistic tactics to scare public into complying with COVID rules

Founder of number 10s Nudge Unit claims

Now the nudge unit is a colloquial term for the behavioral psychology unit in government

It's called Spy B, the scientific pandemic influenza behavior group, right, the founder of that unit has come out now

And he said he regrets

And he's written a column for a different platform called Unheard

And this is the news piece on his column

So he's written a whole column expressing this regret

And he says he expressed regrets that they used these manipulative methods to encourage fear

But it gets better

Why do they use the word military grade?

Yeah, so this so far establishes that 'cause it intends not relevant for me at this point, right?

What I'm describing to you is what happened

Why were people?

Scared, yeah, you know you could be well intentioned in doing this

But the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right?

My point isn't about intentions or conspiracy


Maajid Nawaz

This is just what happened and people need to know

That they were manipulated, whether for good or bad intention, that they were manipulated in a way that the people that did it are now expressing regret because they know that this is coming out

So they're trying to get ahead of the curve and admit that they did it now

His here's another interesting one, right?

So there's an MP in the in the Parliament in the British Parliament

His name is Tobias Ellwood

He's a

Conservative MP

Now on his own Twitter page, he announces I'll just read it for you

At no point Googling this I'll just read it for you on his own

He's got a Twitter page he announces, delighted to be promoted to Lieutenant Colonel as a reverse reservist

In the 77 Brigade, an honor to continue serving Her Majesty's Armed Forces, the most professional in the world, right? What's the 77 brigade? Well, you go to their website and they tell you what they are

Groups within 77 brigade and I'll just read a bit here for you. This is on their own on their own website, yeah?

Digital Operations Group provide a specialist capability to deliver influence activity and products across a broad range of communications channels

Web OPS team

The web OPS team collects information and understands audience sentiment in the virtual domain

Right with the extent OSINT that's open source intelligence policy framework, they may engage with audiences in order to influence perceptions to support operational outcomes

Now the question is here you've got a British MP's involved in a military PSYOPS unit called the 77th

Now I'm going to tell you something about Twitter because we mentioned Twitter, yeah?

This is an article in the Middle East I

I'll read a direct quote for you

The date

As it pulls up open here

30th of September 2019 Middle East ID. Articles by Ian Cobain and it's headlined Twitter executive for Middle East is British Army PSYOPS soldier. Part Time Officer has worked on behavioral change projects in the region in the region

Gordon McMillan, who joined Twitter, the social media Companies UK office six years ago, has for several years also served with the 77th Brigade

A unit formed in 2015 to develop non lethal ways of waging war

I've just read for you. The 77th is engaged in information operations

Look at this

And a Twitter executive is a member of the 77th

Assign soldier and This is why I said to you

Military grade psychological operations, not just any psychological operations

This is why people have become so scared

They are victims of PSYOPS

Intentions might be good, don't you think you I Jamie, your listeners had the right to know this was happening to us regardless of the

Joe Rogan

Intention yes, well this was listed in an article in September of 2019, right? I mean, we did know about it, at least it was published. It was exposed in September of 2019, right? Oh, I see

Maajid Nawaz

Well, that was exposed

It was exposed

Yeah yeah it's it's exposed

Yeah, it's a it's a leak

It's not a it's

An exposure

Yeah, it's not at the government

Saying this is what we're doing to you, how did it?

How did they find out about that?

Joe Rogan

Leaks one thing I like about you

You come with receipts, yeah?

Maajid Nawaz

Receipts, right?

So when I say now I'm going to say the statement again and it's going to

Sound less crazy now

Military grade psychological operations

Joe Rogan

May I ask you like?

Yes, well I see that that is military great

Now let me ask you this, how do you think that is achieved?

Do you think that's achieved through the use of things like the IR a like how Russia uses it troll farms?

Things along those lines that manipulate narratives through paid posers, like people that are pretending to be posters

But they're really just someone who works for a government organization and they push a very specific like

I get very suspicious when I see people with like American flags in their their Twitter handle and they they talk a lot of crazy **** I'm like that might be a fed

You know there's a lot of that online

I find a lot of that on Instagram, where I'll I'll see someone page like someone will send me a video

Hey check out this video and I go to their page like oh, this feels suspiciously not like a person like this

Feels suspiciously like someone is trying to like get something to rile people up out there their whole page

Has no, there's no character to it

There's no personality

There's no emotional engagement

It's like a constant barrage of memes and and videos that are inflammatory and data and like

And I look at our goal

Is this guy in Macedonia somewhere?

You know, with a in a troll farm?

Because we know that that's a real thing, so it's not

Just like here's the thing that we're willing to accept very easily, we're willing to accept that foreign countries are manipulating us

Yeah, right, we're willing to accept that Russia does that, but the I RA we've just seen that

Maajid Nawaz

But we're doing

Joe Rogan

But that's the thing

Like how much are we doing it and how much do we know about like the Renee Diresta?

His work with the IR A when she when she uncovered these hundreds of thousands

Sam did a podcast with her and then I did a podcast with her after

Words and just talking to her about the depth of the work that they do to try to get people riled up online

And that's exactly what they're doing

They're just entering into these Christian chat groups

There was a an article recently that came out that showed that out of 20 of the top Christian groups on Facebook, 19 of them were run by troll Farms

19 of them we showed all these different like your baby daddy ain't **** that was run by troll farms

All these like really wild inflammatory meme pages run by troll farms and their purpose is just to round people up

We're accepting those like wow, we're being attacked but

What are we doing we meeting what is, what are the the intelligence agencies within this country that have a vested interest in pushing a narrative?

What are they doing in this country?

Yeah, what are they doing on social media?

Maajid Nawaz

Around the world

Joe Rogan

While we're getting blocked and banned left and right for all kinds of arbitrary things like Unity 2020, which was Bret Weinstein

Organization that was trying to put together a very respectable member of the right and a very respectable member of the Left and see if they could come up with an alternative party

They were banned from Twitter for that

Maajid Nawaz

Now, tweets, US1 arena. Yeah yes, one battleground

Uh, awhile back in this conversation you said something which I appreciate you saying and it's accurate

Is that having been through all of this, I was able to identify some of these early warning signs and trained in ideological warfare

I have been as an Islamist revolutionary and it's why the Egyptian Government put me in jail

Oh, all these signs and I know how it works

I know how you deconstruct a country for the purposes of destroying it from within now whether it's Twitter and our use of social media platforms

But it doesn't stop there

It includes subversion through infiltration of state bodies by your operatives who are not there to serve people, but who are there to deliver the

Aims of your organization

Joe Rogan

And what are the aims of the?

Maajid Nawaz

Organization, so let me play something for you by Klaus Schwab

Yeah, this is in Harvard

Joe Rogan

Oh this guy

Maajid Nawaz

John F Kennedy School of Government

He is speaking in 20

17 I feel like

Joe Rogan

We should have Darth Vader music playing when that guy tossed

Maajid Nawaz

Please do it when I play, just have it seriously because I have a listen

Joe Rogan

Dumb, dumb, dumb can you?

Get Darth Vader music hold on

Maajid Nawaz

To this

Unknown 1

I have to

Maajid Nawaz

OK wait yeah

Unknown 1

Go just hold it please

Unknown 1

We've got to have the proper music for this amazing introduction of Xing pink, yeah?

Maajid Nawaz

Are you ready?

Yeah, tell me why give me some?

Joe Rogan

Just the music

Maajid Nawaz

OK, but you want to hear the audio as well

Unknown 1

There we go, yes

Unknown 2

And I have to say

Unknown 2

When I mentioned our names like Mrs

Unknown 2

Merkel, even Vladimir Putin and so on, they all have been young global leaders of civil economic form

Unknown 2

What we are very proud of now is young generation like Prime Minister Trudeau

Unknown 2

President of Alpha, Argentina and so on said he penetrates the cabinets

Unknown 2

So yesterday I was at a reception for Prime Minister Trudeau

Unknown 2

I would know said half of this cabinet or even more half of half of this cabinet

Unknown 2

For our actually young global leaders of the world are grateful

Unknown 2

And that's true in Argentina too

Unknown 2

Well, yeah, sorry that's true in Argentina as well


Unknown 2

It's throwing out shantina and it's so in France, so maybe it's a president with a young global leader, but

Unknown 2

What is important for me?

Maajid Nawaz

So what you got there is Emperor Palpatine speaking about how in the first in the preludes, the first three Star Wars, how he's going to use democracy to put his people in place, right?

He explicitly said in that quote you just heard what we are very proud of is that we penetrate the global cabinets of countries with our World Economic Forum

Young global leaders

And then gave examples like Trudeau like Macron and it's not just him saying this

This is Tony Blair saying exactly the same thing

Our teams are now embedded in governments around the world, helping them to keep their people safe during this pandemic

Unknown 3

How to keep?

Unknown 3

People as safe as possible protect them as much as possible, but not simply in respect of COVID-19 itself, but in respect also of the collateral damage done by the disease. So we've been really focusing on three areas. The first is around exit strategies, particularly

Unknown 3

In the UK and other developed countries where we've published papers showing how we might exit and ease the lockdown

Unknown 3

Secondly, of course, because of all the work we do in Africa with many different governments there, our teams have seen in place are on the ground

Unknown 3

They're working with the President, Prime Minister teams in combating the crisis

Unknown 3

And then what?

Unknown 3

We're focused on is trying to give them realistic ways of containing COVID-19 without doing enormous damage to economies that depend often on informal working and where the food supply chains are a critical part of keeping people alive

Unknown 3

And then thirdly, we're working on the global coordination picture because one of the things that has been shocking

Unknown 3

As I've said, right from the very beginning is the absence of global coordination

Unknown 3

I think out of this

Joe Rogan

So that one doesn't bother me

Maajid Nawaz

The direct quote, though on his, as you say, our teams are now embedded in governments around the world

That's actually what they wrote, and the video is 2 minutes

I didn't

Joe Rogan

Play all of it is what he says, but what he's saying there sounds reasonable

Figuring out on strategic ways to end the lockdown easily, but that makes sense

Maajid Nawaz

Four Seasons

No, not yet

Not the end lockdown

No no no

Joe Rogan

Well, didn't he say

Maajid Nawaz

That keep in mind, Tony Blair is the one who's been advocating for vaccine, passports, digital identification through COVID, and all of these measures

Joe Rogan

But didn't they say that about ending the lockdowns and keeping businesses and stuff?

Maajid Nawaz

Once those measures are in place right so he's even in the UK, his stance is being yeah, we're going to get out of it, but you have to have digital ID and you have to have

So during the war

Joe Rogan

And then this is going to introduce the

The Social Credit score system

Maajid Nawaz

Right, so the what?

All of that came from your question, which is regardless of intention

How do people?

How do people do that infiltration from within?

It's not just Twitter, so back to the psychological operations

It's also embedding people in government who are subscribed to this agenda

Yeah, and the agenda of Corbyn the world

Economic Forum is the same as the agenda of Tony Blair in this regard

They call it on their own website

They call it the great reset

That's what they say themselves, yeah?

Joe Rogan

Yeah, that's a bizarre thing to do to openly

Why do you think they openly discuss it that way and openly?

Because the great reset has always been this gigantic conspiracy theory among the online folks like this is all part of the great reset

Well, when he wrote a ******* book called The Great Reset you're like hey Man, shouldn't you?

Maajid Nawaz

Be hiding this and and and in 2017 at Harvard he's saying

You know we're going to basically all of these world leaders or penetrate their cabinets with our young global leaders

He's open, he's open Blair's open. During the Iraq War, Blair tried to bring in ID cards in Britain

He failed, now he's back and he's trying to bring in digital ID during COVID, right?

So they're open about

Joe Rogan

So this is going to be this never ending process to slowly move the goal posts

Maajid Nawaz

Towards more and more authoritarianism

Checkpoint society

It's all there, they told us

Joe Rogan

This we people have to realize this right

This is important yeah?

When you were when you were on your radio show, what kind of pushback did you?

Can you talk about that?

No, probably can't

Maajid Nawaz

So I can when it comes to those who disagreed with me in public, just not the management legal side contract side

Joe Rogan


Maajid Nawaz

But there were other broadcasters that basically some called me

Deranged is 1 direct quote, another because obviously this is a whole radio group, so there's other presenters not just my show, yeah

When I said I when I said publicly on my feet, I would not not get a booster and I said I'm a conscientious objector to getting a booster because of mandates, and I I refuse to participate in a system that removes choice

I was called deranged for saying I didn't want to

Get a booster

Soon afterwards, again, it all came out and they realized that the boosters weren't doing much when it comes to

The spread and transmission of COVID, so they publicly came out and attacked me

For some of the things I've said here, in fact I've gone

Nothing I've said here

I haven't already said, by the way, so I've been called an extremist for saying this for having this discussion that I'm having with you

I've been re radicalized

Somehow, apparently this means that I haven't really left the group that I used

To belong

To Jesus yeah, and on top of that

I I need mental help

I've got mental health problems

I'm being gaslit in that way that I'm the one who's lost sense of reality

So when you move the goal posts in that way to such an extent that

That the that the psychological operations purpose is to gaslight the public, as happened under communism

The person who speaks up

Is the person that has psych needs psychological help as opposed?

To of course

Joe Rogan

Yeah, that is gaslighting by definition, yeah

Maajid Nawaz

That's where we are

But as you've seen nothing I said comes without receipts

Joe Rogan

No, and you know when we were easing into this conversation, I had a

I had a feeling he was going to go this way, but I was like I was hoping I was going to find some holes

Yeah, I was hoping like, well, maybe he's exaggerating, or maybe I don't

Unknown 1

Remain music

Joe Rogan

I don't see these

Maajid Nawaz

Holes so so

Again, remember this right?

For me, it's not about intention

You can have the best of intentions and do evil

That is what Hannah Arendt meant by the banality of evil

Joe Rogan

I think that's a very good point

That's a very good point, because that erases the stigma that it's attached to these conspiracy theories that there's this grand cabal of evil people that are currently trying to control the world

Do you think that there is a sense or that they have an incentive to try to impart more control?

Because we're under direct competition with China and they have essentially total control over there

The way the Chinese government has control of their corporations and the Corporations Act for the interest

Of the Chinese party, they they act with in the best interest. They don't do any. They're not independent like, you know, say Harley-Davidson or something like that

It does whatever the **** they want when they would make motorcycles whatever you're doing in China if you, especially if you're involved in a technology company you work with the government

You go one step further, OK, please

Maajid Nawaz

I there's something called Elite capture, which is a term that I use

I believe our elite

Have come under the undue influence of Chinese intelligence agencies, unfortunately

Joe Rogan

Our elite like who's our elite, our political elite house

Maajid Nawaz

Political elite

Well, OK, so if you look up BBC Chinese spy parliament MI 5 just last month

In fact this month I think it was warned about this

I've been saying it since my hunger strike, which we haven't spoken about, but I went on hunger strike at the beginning of the pandemic because of the week are genocide in China

I did a five day hunger strike to try and draw attention to the plight of the week

I, Muslim community who are facing genocide in China because nobody was speaking about it in the media at the time

It wasn't getting the attention it deserved

And I was a mainstream broadcaster who didn't even turn up to work

Because I was on hunger strike sitting outside the Chinese embassy in protest, the purpose was to get 100,000 signatures

On a petition on a UK Parliament website that would force a debate in the UK Parliament on the genocide in China, we got the 100,000 signatures within four days and there was a debate and the UK Parliament unanimously voted in a symbolic vote that there was a genocide in China and then other countries started cascading after that candidate at the same in the Netherlands did the same

Blinking here is when he was sworn in

After my hunger strike was asked in his swearing in ceremony, he said yes, I believe there's a genocide in China and then America followed

Suit as well

Back in those days when I did that hunger strike

It wasn't common apart from Trump, it wasn't common for somebody from my background to speak about China, it was seen as a Trumpian thing

To do right

And people often forget how that was in those days and dumb

I mentioned back then that the reason I think this genocide was being not getting the attention it deserved in the press was because our elite had come under the armed do influence of Chinese state

CCP, right, Communist Party, not the Chinese people, but the states influence operations in the West and they had somehow captured our elite

To head in a direction that serves the interests of China

Now what's come out since then, it's it's now two years later

Again, like with everything else I've spoken about, it's now in the press, so there's an article in the BBC MI 5 warning over Chinese agent in Parliament

That's from the 13th of January this month

Month now that this lady here she's been operating with senior parliamentarians as an active spy of the Chinese Communist Party

At to the point where our security services, the internal branch MI Five, had issued a rare warning as it says

At the top right

And she's not the only one

Joe Rogan

I want to read it for people

Maajid Nawaz

That are just listening like 5 has issued a rare warning that an alleged Chinese agent has infiltrated Parliament to interfere in UK politics and alert from the Security Service, said Christine Chinqua Lee

I hope I pronounced that correctly established links for the Chinese Communist Party, CCP with current and aspiring MPs

She then gave donations to politicians with funding

Coming from forward nationals in China and Hong Kong specifically go down, we go down to the next few paragraphs there

One of the MP's funded by Miss Lee was Labour's Barry Gardner right so this is

Our opposition party, who received over £420,000. That's half $1,000,000

Yeah, from her in five years, but he said he's always made the security services aware of the donations. Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey also received a £5000 donation, so a lot less

Those two parties, by the way, were very much in favor of all of the COVID mandates, and we know that the idea of lockdowns began in China

We know that the virus leaked from Wuhan

We know that China has an interest in making sure that the world follows its ideology

A bit like in the Cold War with the Soviet Union wanted us to be communists

Joe Rogan

But can you really buy the influence of these politicians for $100,000 a year to the point where they're willing to instigate these sort of COVID lockdowns?

Maajid Nawaz

What you do is you don't

They don't think they're being bought, they think they're receiving money from a donor, and they're serving their donors interests like a lobby

That's how the lobby works

It's why so they have discussions with them

It's like

Joe Rogan

About an agenda

Maajid Nawaz

You know, yeah, and it's like you know

So when I first started speaking about the wiegard genocide, it was seen as racist against the Chinese to speak about

The Communist influence of China in the West, right?

So you don't need to say don't you don't need to say to somebody

Here's some money

Do the bidding of the CCP you

Need to say I'm I'm funding you as a British Chinese citizen when actually they're working for the CCP

I'm worried about increasing anti Chinese racism

Again, a legitimate concern to have

I'm going to provide money to your party and let's

Start trying to divert conversation away from criticizing Chinese actions because it will lead to anti Chinese racism unless instead speak about the need for wowway the contract with wowway the 5G networks. So it's why we had this problem where

So difficult to cancel those wowway contracts, but we ended up canceling them in the end after we agreed to have them because all of this got exposed

After that hunger

I'm not saying I'm the reason it got exposed, I'm saying it was


Maajid Nawaz

In chronological order

Just to reassure people that what I say isn't just something that I've just plucked out of my head is actually then it gets reported in the press

It's happening, so the concern around China's influence in terms of not only our tech wowway and others and the ability to enter our information through the back door through the wowway 5G networks, which have since been canceled since Trump

And in the UK we followed America and cancelled those pending contracts

It doesn't just apply to tech, it doesn't just apply to

Pro lockdown messaging in Parliament, but you look to our we've got a nuclear reactor in the UK called Hinkley Point C

It's being built with Chinese funding

Now I'm asking you to countries engaged in a genocide against a community for their beliefs

It doesn't tolerate diversity, and you're letting that nation controlled by the CCP

Work on our sensitive nuclear programs now I wouldn't do that with the Soviet Union

And what I don't understand, moving this conversation slightly to foreign policy is why are we?

Why are we not realizing that we've got this kind of consensus developing with the Biden administration, that Putin and Russia are a threat when actually you got a bigger problem here with the CCP far more powerful than Russia, far more organized, have far more centralized control, and are far wealthier

And their military is far stronger

And we go real elephant in the room, and that is the increasing power of the CCP ruled China

The influence isn't just military, but it's also soft power, so when the lockdowns first began, I signed a joint letter with other signatories up and one of the signatories was General Spalding. Here at US general

And it was

It's on the web

It's online still, and we directly alleged that influence Chinese influence operations have been responsible for a lot of this idea that lockdowns were our solution

It was the First Nation that implemented lockdowns and then Italy in Europe followed after China and then the rest of Europe followed after that, and Michael Singer, who's one of the signatories to that letter

Has written an extensive book on this tracing step by step

The way I've gone through receipts with you here

He's gone through step by step these influence operations where the CCP have been encouraging a draconian response to COVID and all of this technocracy that is eventually going to arise in the form of Checkpoint Charlie Society and central banking digital currencies

I see

Joe Rogan

They've been encouraging

Other nations to implement these

Maajid Nawaz

Their model

Joe Rogan

And how do they get away with that?

Like how how do these other nations comply?

They comply because of influence

Maajid Nawaz

Influence operations funding intelligence operations as you see

Joe Rogan

And because of that, they're willing to impart laws that they would not normally do

The governments that they're being influenced

The governments like, whether whether it's Great Britain, whether it's United States

These governments are being influenced in your mind

Maajid Nawaz

With the help of

The agenda coming from other non state actors such as the World Economic Forum and their teams

Penetrating cabinets across the world as Klaus, Rob said, there are some supranational interests here that exists above the nation state

Working as I said to a power grab, working to define the future in a certain direction, and that is to make sure that decentralization doesn't happen

The mother of centralization is the CCP

So we're at a crossroads

Historically, we can either move towards decentralization and people power

Which means local governments, decentralized power, community, family and a separation of powers

Or we move in the CCP direction and there's a term for this in political science

It's called the Thucydides trap

How does a rising power overtaken existing power rising power China existing power America?

How does a rising power overtaken existing power without war, the term, the term the cities trap, is a term to describe that, historically, whenever we've been in this moment

War has happened

Because nobody sits by quietly and allows for that rising power to take them over

So we're in that moment now and our our challenge is how do we navigate this facilities trap moment with the rise of China without us going to war with China, but also stave off their influence?

But that's the moment I believe we are in in history, and I'll just say

With form I know how long we have, by the way

And I'm talking a lot about this

Joe Rogan

We basically just hit the three hour

Maajid Nawaz

Mark Cool, I mean I don't know how long you're comfortable with talking, but I'm I'm happy to start whenever you want me to the situation now in Ukraine

I believe it's a folly

Russia and Putin of course, like you know all governments

They have their own interests, their own agendas

Yeah, but what we really should be looking at isn't throwing Russia further into the bosom of China, which is what we're doing at the moment

You've got a Russia China alliance against us

Surely if we're going to be clever, we need to be able to

Who's diplomacy with Putin and separate Russia from China?

Because the big agenda date danger is China, not Russia

Russia isn't our friend, but the bigger danger is China

The way we're behaving at the moment, whether it's with the Ukraine or in Syria

Is we're pushing that alliance closer? You've got Iran, Russia, China and they've got cooperation with Biden's screw up in Afghanistan and not the fact we withdrew

I've never been for the war as we've discussed, but the way he withdrew the Taliban now have more Black Hawk helicopters than the entire British Army because of Biden, right?

The background air base that was the American base in Afghanistan, the Daily Mail reported and you can look it up if you want to, but I'll just tell you, the Daily Mail reported that Chinese military have now landed at Bagram

So you've got this axis developing Russia, China, Iran and Afghanistan ruled by the Taliban

If we're going to be clever, we've got to realize this rising block

It's not in our interests for them to stay united in that way

We should be attempting diplomacy with Russia and focusing on China as a rising concern because unlike Russia, not only does China have a stronger economy and a stronger military, those things I can handle

The problem I've got is China is stronger

Ideologically it has a alternative consensus about that crossroads

We're at China, has a centralized system, and it has soft power to advocate for that centralized system

It believes in itself and its technocracy and its social credit system

In other words, it's like the Soviet Union

It has the ability to sell itself because it's cohesive

Russia doesn't have that centralized social credit system

It doesn't have that

You know thing that the Chinese have with that kind of strong centralized power with an ideology behind it

Russia is a traditional country, not an ideological country, at least since the collapse of the Soviet Union

What we should be worried about is the ideological country because ideologies peddle soft power and they influence minds with their agenda

And they influence narratives and what we've missed because we aren't in the West attuned to ideological warfare

We've missed that bit

We've missed the fact that the CCP has been influencing through its narratives

It's been influencing the world in this hybrid war way with its disinformation campaigns

A lot of these fake accounts on Twitter, by the way, Twitter themselves have convinced that a lot of them were run by the CCP

And and so this disinformation is being peddled from that side

If we could divide Russia from China, we stand a stronger chance in that facilities trap moment of the rise of China

How to how to navigate around then?

Joe Rogan

I feel like you and I can have another 15 of these three hour conversation, so we gotta do this again

Maajid Nawaz

Can I quickly tell you?

Why I'm?

Joe Rogan

Yes please

Maajid Nawaz

Doing this, yeah so having

How do I put this diplomatically having had my services no longer required, perfect for my mainstream media?

Joe Rogan

You should have a podcast and I know I've said that to a billion people and I'm gonna say it to you because I think you more than anybody

Would are qualified for this

Maajid Nawaz

Well, I I will, I'll be on so that's what I wanted to tell you

So there's three things I'm going to do

I'm having my service is no longer being required on that

On that talk show, so I'm working with Odyssey

Which is a online video platform like YouTube?

Yes, but it's decentralized

So the videos sit on a blockchain so that YouTube yesterday took down

Dan Bongino show

Yeah, and they took it down

Took it down suspended and they took down trigonometry

Joe Rogan

Well, OK, when they they take these down they're taking them down for a specific period

Of time or forever

Maajid Nawaz

I don't know, but that's why I decided

Joe Rogan

I I know that trigonometry thing I heard Jordan Peterson told me about that last night I

Maajid Nawaz

Was shocked so I thought I'm not going to go down that route in the first place

Then we are banned, yeah?

Joe Rogan

Permanently bans demonja

What did he say?

Maajid Nawaz

I mean, you know

Joe Rogan

How this works?

Maajid Nawaz

Who knows?

Joe Rogan

I mean, so when so he violated the rules by trying to evade a previous suspension

I think it says the Fox host uploaded a video to his main channel while his secondary channel, which primarily hosted short clips from his digital radio show

Was actively suspended for violating YouTube's COVID-19 misinformation policy. When a channel receives a strike, it is against our terms of services to post content or use another channel to circumvent the suspension

OK, well that

Maajid Nawaz

Meanwhile, meanwhile, newspapers can say Antivaxxer dies while he's vaccinated and there's no repercussions for that, right right, anyway?

So the point is whether it's him, whether it's triggernometry they've been taken down, so I didn't want to go down that route

So I've I've been speaking to Odyssey as a Julian is their CEO, and he's been very kind

And I'm going to put my show on this other platform called Odyssey, which is decentralized

Joe Rogan

Is inbred show on that?

Maajid Nawaz

As well, I think so yeah

Joe Rogan

And then there's

Maajid Nawaz

And it's called radical with magic numbers

Joe Rogan

This rumble, which is another platform that's more open

Maajid Nawaz

So I spoke to those guys too, but I think with me with Odyssey it's built on the blockchain tech yes and rumble I don't

I don't think it's it's videos are decentralized in that way, so even if the Odyssey websites removed the library blockchain, check that those videos sit on, stay on the blockchain, and I will then

Joe Rogan

I see what you're saying

Maajid Nawaz

I own my own content, so that's my idea

I think I want to live by example if I if I'm worried about going either in a centralized direction with the planet, or a decentralized direction, I want to try and move my own media content in the decentralized way

And the other thing I've got is that sub stack which I set up as soon as I lost my my gig

And I do sort of written content on there, and finally I'll be doing some collaboration with Getter

As an alternative to Twitter, just to try and have that diversity on the Twitter space, I'll be doing some videos and live streaming and and tweet contents on on getter as well

But that's those three odyssey Substracting Getter will be where people will be able to find me the contents called radical whether it's on Odyssey's radical with margin. Now was on sub stack. It's called the radical dispatch

And my name on ghetto you can find me on

Joe Rogan

There as well, Majid, I appreciate you

So this was everything I wanted and more

Maajid Nawaz

Thank you brother

Joe Rogan

I'm so glad we did it and we will do it again

Maajid Nawaz

Thanks for having me

Joe Rogan

My pleasure

Thank you very very much

Alright, you heard it folks

Bye everybody