The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by Night, all day.
So this is for you
Hello, thank you
So much your own
It's got a little Jerry label on the back of it
This is your own, but in the side this little thing
Oh yeah, this is a part of a thing we did with fight for the forgotten, which is
I don't know if you know what that is, but it's a charity that my friend Justin Wren put together
It's they build wells for people in the pygmy pygmy population in Uganda and in the Congo as well
And so they did a thing with Buffalo trace where
We picked out one very specific batch and they they literally gave us a barrel of whiskey so we have what's one giant bottle and then a bunch of these bottles to give out to guests
You go nice
Oh man, this feels strange
I you know I, I've got to tell you
In the late 90s, I watched News Radio all the time so you know, get the you know
Feels feels weird having a
Drink with you, yeah
It feels weird just being me so
It's it's weird for both
It's weird for people to feel weird to meet me, so that's that's odd too
So your book is speaks to my
Heart, did you bring a copy?
Ah, I did
You have a
Book with you
No, I have a book with me
This is a this is a book by my friend Adolph Reed
So it's about growing up in New Orleans under Jim Crow and like kind of how
The South and the country has changed and how it hasn't changed, so this is good stuff, but
OK, cool, well that's a good book too, but tell everybody about
Your book, yeah, so my book is called canceling comedians while the world burns, a critique of the contemporary left and I wrote that a while ago, so that was before we went through this like surreal experience where
During weeks that the United States and Russia have been like closer to the brink of war than the Cuban missile crisis, you know than they have been since the Cuban missile crisis
Somehow we've had new weeks of news cycle about Joe Rogan, you know, I
Don't know, I don't know how that happened
Yeah, I'm a controversial character, apparently
Apparently, at apparently those controversies are the most important thing in
The world, well, the most important thing in the world in media is ratings, and unfortunately
Outrage is what sells and if you could be upset at something and so there's like a perfect storm with me
First of all, it was questioning the COVID narrative and then it was having on doctors who also questioned the COVID narrative
And then it was me getting COVID and recovering very quickly, but taking the wrong medication in their eyes
And then it was, you know, like posting up the brought to you by Pfizer videos and like showing like these, these people like bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies
It's all the other things
It's like every clip that we talked about before the podcast, like every clip that I've ever said, taken out of context and if you smush em all together how horrible it looks, but it's not really, it's
It's not really that they think it's important, it's they don't give a **** what's important, they're just trying to stay alive and they're trying to get as many views as possible and they're trying to escape what is
This is undeniable
The demise of modern mainstream news
Well, that's the yeah we're talking about this a little bit before before we started and
I think what's really, I mean, whatever, this is not like a mind shatteringly original insight or whatever
You know lots of people have said this, but I think what's really gone on is that the economic collapse of traditional media has meant
That the profit incentive now is just to cater to whoever you have left, right?
So if you have
You know, like if you're on Fox
Bucks then, like you know, whatever like couple million conservative old people
Or you know, watching any given time you want to give them the narrative that's going to keep them scared and angry
And watching the news if you're on MSNBC
Then you know you spend the entire Trump years talking about Russia
You know, 'cause like, that's what like, that's what scares their audience
Yeah, and people don't, you know
And one thing that that really disturbs me about this, I mean like the book is about all of the things that people who I basically agree with are getting wrong, right?
So in other words, like I'm a socialist, I'm a columnist for Jacobin magazine
You are straight up socialist
Are you a democratic socialist?'cause I know that you've been represented as a democratic socialist
Yeah, so I mean look
Like what do you what is?
The reason I put democratic in there, right?
You know which you know which I which I do
But you know the reason I put democratic
In there is
Because there are obviously countries that have existed that have, you know, called themselves socialist that have
You know not had things that I care about, like in a free speech
And you know, multiparty elections and and and so
I certainly don't want to associate myself with that, but look
I mean, short term I care very much about, you know having
You know socialized healthcare
About about having you know, like tuition, free, higher education so people can go to school without being having to be in debt for like
Decades, which is obscene
I mean, that's ridiculous
Yeah, I'm with you 100% on both those things
You know and
And I do think that like the let the level of inequality that we get from our current system is indefensible, that in other words, that if one person has more than another just because they chose to work harder
Then like, that's one thing, right?
I could you know, like, right, that you know I would
You know person A wants to stay home and watch Netflix
And you know person B
You know one wants to work
For for more hours than like you know person, you know person B should get more money
I am totally fine with that
But what bothers me is when you have these massive inequalities that have huge effects on people's lives, they're linked to things that they aren't under their control, and I think we have a
Lot of that too. I would agree with you 100% my position
On this, whenever people push back against the concept of socialism, or when I was supporting Bernie Sanders or President, I was saying that we look at all the things that are technically a socialist concept that we accept like the fire department
Imagine if you had to have money to get your fire put out
Like we don't think that like if your house burns down we call the fire department
They show up our taxes, fund the fire department
That is essentially a socialist endeavor
I mean, it's
Yeah, it's it's taken outside of the it's taken outside of the market
It's provided just as like a right that you should have just for just for being a person, right?
You know you shouldn't have to do anything special
To get your house put out if it's on fire and you also shouldn't have to do anything special to get treatment
If you're sick to to go to to go to College in the 1st place, it seems to be that a lot of people who like don't think that there should be a higher minimum wage or the same people who will go turn around and say, oh, if they wanted to make more money, they should go back to school, but then they don't want to pay for that, right so?
Which exactly which one?
Is it right?
Should they be paid more doing what they're doing?
Or should they go back to school?'cause if it's none of the above, then it sounds like you just don't think those people should have like good lives, or at least you don't have
A plan to help them have good lives
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One free year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. That's athleticgreens.com/what's fascinating to me, too, is when you look at public school versus public services like the Fire Department Fire Department, people get paid
Well, it's a good job if you're a member of the fire department
I have friends that are in the fire department
It's good benefits. The hours are cool because you get to work like 24 hour shifts. You sleep there, you work there
You like my friend?
Ray was a fire fireman for years and he would say like he worked like a few days a week
And then you know they were long shifts
And they weren't always called to fires, so sometimes they're just cooking and working out and hanging out around the Firehouse
But it's a great job, it's
It's like a a job that people look forward to getting
It's it's difficult to get
How come that's not the same thing with teachers like what?
What kind of ******* world do we live in?
Where teachers don't get paid well?
I mean, I'm not saying fire department people shouldn't be paid well
Of course they should be paid well
They should be paid great
It's a ******* very risky job
It's very valuable to the community, but ******* so is teaching
And how is there such a disparity?
So is teaching and it's crazy that there are so many people who look at K12 teachers and say, like, oh, how come you know how come they get summers off or you know, whatever you know or like don't like that?
Yeah, you know it's
No, it's ridiculous
It's so stupid
And they don't, you know, and I guess what gets me is when people see someone like a unionized school teacher who has some good benefits
A little bit of job security
Not nearly as good as it should be like
We've been talking about, right, you know, but like, and they say, Oh well, why should they have those things when I don't?
Instead of saying well, how can I get those things right so I could have them?
Do you know, because it doesn't?
You know it doesn't benefit you right?
As an ordinary person if like somebody who has a job like that is paid less
In fact, what it it does is it's bad for your kids if they go to public schools because the kinds of things that teachers unions want
Like smaller class sizes are things that are, you know, like the conditions that they teach in are the same conditions that the kids are are learning in right?
So I think it actually
Benefits everybody like I think that Finland is supposed to have the best public schools in the world by a lot of by a lot of metrics
The best school system you know in the world
They actually don't really have private schools
And in Finland and you know it's very strong unions
You know people are certainly you know
Certainly getting a better deal
Teachers there than they they are here but so many people think the solution is to
You know is to privatize things or you know is is to, you know
That's the solution if there's no other options
I mean, if you like if you're a guy right now and you have a child and you have enough money to put them in a really good school that you have to pay for versus a really ****** school that you get for
Free that makes sense
Yeah, I don't blame anybody for making that decision
As an individual, I
Mean like what I would ask?
But they shouldn't have to make that decision
I think what we should have are like excellent public schools so that like everybody can just do that imagine
Imagine that that's controversial, like literally one of the most important things for the future of our society is raising children correctly and educating them by correctly meaning, like giving, giving them the opportunity to grow and pursue their interests and find out where they fit in life and have enthusiastic well paid teachers, not people that feel like they're being taken advantage of and
Fuct with and just just exhausted all the time
Well, it's weird too, because a lot of the same people who are hostile to that will say when they're talking about like corporate CEO's like, oh, you can't complain about how much they're paid because they have to be, you know, like like, you have to have that as an incentive or they're not going to give you their best work if they're not being paid, you know 500 times more
You know, then people who work there, but it's like wait a second so, so why doesn't that logic go for like teachers or other public employees that, like if if they're paid more you know then you're going to get you know then you're going to get a better
Performance out of them
Why is it only CEOs?
Well, it's just we have a very distorted set of values when it comes to like what's important and this is again, not saying that
That fire department people are not important
They're ******* hugely important
I respect him very much and I'm glad they get paid well, but I mean they should get the IT
It should be like that with all of what I would think of social services services for the Community that we would gladly pay for for taxes, fixing infrastructures, fixing roads
The problem, I think with a lot of people is they just don't trust government to handle the money
Well, they think that you're going to get a lot of bureaucracy is going to be bloated
There's going to be a **** load of people that are working. They're not gonna resolve it, and it's going to be the sort of that same situation where if you donate to charities and then you find out that like 90% of the money goes to infrastructure and you're in
And you know, just some of those ****** charities where so much money goes to the people that are working there that very little of it goes to the actual charity itself
Of course, that's
The private sector
Too, but yes it is, it is
With everything but I, I guess I would just say one thing about the bureaucracy thing'cause like I know that that's something that's like a
Easy association lots
Yeah, mine's right. You know that like more government means more bureaucracy, and if you're thinking about people who are like petty gatekeepers, you know we're like gonna be able to approve or deny something. It's like very natural, like resent people like that
But what I would say is that what what situation is actually going to give bureaucrats more power?
Is it going to be if you have something like Medicare for all?
For example, where or, you know, just like how public schools already work, right?
That case for K through 12 that, like every kid, has to be educated
You know, like, like you don't go through a special process
So if it's universal programs, then you don't have what you have with means tested programs where there's somebody who's like looking over your application and deciding whether or not you know you qualify and you know deciding which hoops you have to jump through
And like that really seems to me like where bureaucrats are really going to get
You know, most of their power, and that's not to say
Like when I was saying that I'm not saying that like there are no legitimate complaints about like any of the agencies that do these things
Of course that are right course, you know
But what I would ask though, is what the what the options are, right?
So 'cause 'cause if you privatize something then you're still?
You know you're still having decisions being made by
You know decision makers, who you know who you don't necessarily
You know like might be very distant from you, but the difference is, at least when it's public
Then you know, theoretically, right?
You can at least elect the people who are
You know who are overseeing it, whereas if something is like subcontracted out to a private corporation
Then like, that's not even true anymore, right?
Like there's another layer in between
You is like an ordinary person and control over this
I mean like if
You know, if the federal government does anything bad, then we can
You know theoretically, get, you know, get rid of them
Although I think there are a lot of very undemocratic things about America's political system that make it
Way harder to do that, I mean, the fact that we've only got 2 political parties that are basically allowed to participate in all the the fact you
Know like we
Yeah, you go on and on
We could go on and on, right, you know
The money that's involved in getting these people elected
Yeah, the money definitely right
Amounts of money from special interest
Groups, yeah, no question right?
So like I think it's I think we've got like, you know, we've got like a little bit of democracy there
Not nearly as much as we should, right?
But like Jeff Bezos isn't up for election by anybody, right?
Like like, like, like, he's just there, right?
So like if you have
You know, like if for example you know you you didn't have like the public post office, right it was
It was just like Amazon, you know, taking the you know like Amazon trucks and that's it then
Now you're talking about an institution that that there's no democratic control over, right?
There's some like a little bit of indirect control in the case
Of the the Post office, which you know, by the way, I would point out that like
When conservatives talk about you, know bureaucracy and inefficiency and stuff like that, they always bring that up. But like if you actually look at polls like 90% of Americans like the
Post office the Post office is amazing
They can get a ******* letter across the country less than a dollar
Crazy is that
Could what does it cost for a stamp?
Let's say that now
Yeah, it's like I know it's less than a dollar it's it's been awhile since I actually yeah, like I think my wife usually like flies this stuff, the post office but like but like, but the fact that you can take a letter from Austin to like rural Alaska for a buck for a buck is ******* bonkers is ridiculous
I just email stuff I don't ******* mail **** anymore, but like
And no private company would
Would have the the incentive to do that, right?
You know and and and I think that that's
Like one of the things that Bernie Sanders was talking about, the two times he ran for president, and it's not one of the things that was played up the most
Is postal banking you know which is the idea that you could have like basic basic banking services offered at the post office, which they actually do have in some Scandinavian countries and that was
Basic banking service like deposits and withdrawals and stuff like that at the post
Office, why would you do that?
At the Post office, which is, which is because it's a public institution that already exists everywhere, right?
You know their their post offices all over the place
So they would sort out money as well as mail
What if the money goes to the wrong places like the mail sometimes goes?
I get mail from wrong people sometimes
Well, the mail does sometimes go to the wrong places
I would point out if you look at like FedEx, you know FedEx versus the universe is the post office
Or two wrong people I should say?
You know it's it's the the I, I don't
I don't actually think the the failure rate you know is is worse with the
With the the USPS, but
No, we have a problem with UPS
Here we get our ******* packages get stolen
Yeah, and I
They just leave him here
And we're not here and someone snatched it
Yeah, well, I don't know
That's you know if the alternative is they they they put the thing on
The you know
Yeah, put the ******* thing on the door
Man will come get it
You got a lazy UPS driver, but your subject like at home I got a great guy but it's it's like you're subjected to the whoever the **** it is
It's running that route, you know, unfortunately
No fair enough, right?
But but what I would just point out is this that like right now there are a lot of people who for one reason or another they can't get a bank account
Like you know that they have that
I mean the most like extreme case might be like somebody who's who's like homeless, you know so they don't have an address
But like even short of that right, there are people who, for one reason or another have trouble getting a bank account
So you have all these, like parasitical, like you know, check cashing you know businesses and stuff like that
That, like prey on people like that and I think having some kind of public alternative
Would like go a long way to to helping with that issue
There are countries that already exist, you know so so I think that like in the short term
Like the stuff that makes sense to me is finding ways you know where it makes sense
It might not always make sense, right?
You know, but finding ways that you can expand what's not just like you have to find some private corporation to to do it for you, but that can be within the sort of
You know the public, the public sphere, and then look
I mean, there are things that will probably always need
You know private businesses for I'm under no illusions about that. You know that you know, if you don't want to have, like the way grocery stores were in like the Soviet Union in 1985 or whatever, right?
You know you you have to have you know like there are certain things, price signals and you know firm failure
You probably do need to have
But I do think like at the sort of outer edges of what I would like that it would be good if it was a long term goal to move towards having it be more of a norm that that you know workers like own like a lot of a lot of private businesses
You know that there are
You know, if you look at like the Mondragon Corporation in Spain, you know that that that has like 80,000. You know worker members you know who who own that
You know you have like the equivalent, like an operating agreement, which is like the equivalent of a Union contract, but there's no like separate Boston negotiate with
You know might not necessarily directly elect managers, because there could be things that are, like, you know, technical things that you know managers have to do that, like you want that to be more of a traditional job application, but you can at least elect the people who who hire them and
Even if I could, like you know, whatever like a magical genie would, just like somehow
Grant me you
Know that like all of my political preferences where we're satisfied in ways that I don't think they're going to be anytime soon. Given all those problems with America's political system, we talked about earlier
But like even if
That happened, I don't think that like every single business should have to be like that, that if you you know like
Hire a guy to you, know to to do like graphic design for your podcast for 10 hours a week or something that they have to have, like voting rights and cooperative like that would be silly, but I think that you can
I think we could move towards an economy where that was like a much more common thing
And I think that would be way better off because the way it is
In like the kinds of corporations that dominate the economy right now, where you'll get like Amazon workers who are like sometimes like working at the warehouse and then they have to have like a second job at night and their boss literally has enough money off of that to buy his own spaceship, right?
That that strikes me
As a level of of inequality that's really hard to justify by the principles that we kind of
Well, what do?
What do they pay at Amazon?
Are they so so?
I think just the underpaid I
I don't think that they're egregiously underpaid by the standards of the standards
The of, like you know, corporate America as a whole
I think I think it is up to you know15 Now I'd have to check the exact numbers, but I think that the but like what I would
What I would question is just this though right like
When you're dividing up right, like the revenues that the whole company is making, then you say like there are lots of ways that if you are in a cooperative and people could vote on pay scales, there are lots of things you could do
To convince somebody like employees vote on
Pay scales, yeah, like if you have like a worker, cooperative, right, right?
You know then
But the problem with that is a lot more workers than there are Jeff Bezos
And if they decide to say, like we, we should get most of the
Money OK, but they put but what do you think?
What do you think Jeff Bezos is is doing like what's the?
He's doing coke and he's banging his girlfriend on a yacht
He's living like a guy who's got a180 $3 billion
Yeah, going to space on a rocket ship looks like a**** he's shooting a giant metal **** up into the heavens
He's literally trying to Fock space
Yeah, that's what he's doing that he's supposed to do
When you make that kind of money with my fascination with Jeff Bezos is his transformation from nerd to like this like muscle looking guy
It looks like, uh, jujitsu
He looks like a tank
It's kind of crazy, and he's now he's got
He used to have this like very respectable normal wife and now he's got this bombshell girlfriend
It's kind of hilarious
I love it
I love a good cliche
I really do
I love the fact they have to take down a bridge because he made a yacht that is so ******* big in order for it to get out of the the place where they're making it, they have to disassemble a ******* bridge
And he's like, yeah, disassembled the bridge
Like **** the
Joe Rogan**** man
Why do you need a yacht so big?
They have to
What are you doing?
What are you doing?
He's just out of control, but that's like I feel like everyone that gets to that level of wealth seems to go out of control
Yeah, no, it it definitely does
It definitely does seem that way
Right and then their their kids
In many cases start out of control because they grew up their entire lives like having this
Like level of wealth
That makes it easy to get anybody to do whatever you want them to do
That's part of the problem
The other part of the problem is there's no time to be with the kids, so when you're working and you're the CEO of Amazon, I mean the ******* hours that guy was putting in is probably insane
He's probably working when he was working
He's not CEO anymore, but he's probably working 16 hours a
Day, how the ****
Can you instill some sort of sense of normalcy in your children?
When you're never home, it's not really possible
So then you compensate with gifts and
And and and now he's pictures
Yeah, now he's too busy, you know, storming coke and you know, going into
Space all that stuff
And and banging his bombshell girlfriend woo?
Yeah I I feel what you're saying
Do you think that?
Do you have hope for?
I mean, there seems such a polarization in this country
There's people that are completely disagree with on the right that are like pull yourself up by your bootstraps
All that stuff like that that is nonsense talk when people talk like that
I'm like Jesus Christ man
Not everybody is starting from the same position, it's it's a crazy disparity
And until we address that
As a society, until we look at these impoverished communities that have been impoverished for decades and decades and decades, and you know, if you really want to talk about where my real feelings of socialism lie, my feelings of socialism are there are communities, and it's not just inner cities, it's like Appalachia, it's these coal mining towns like we have to dump money into these places and help these folks
Because if you don't, you're gonna have people that come out of there and they're gonna cost you exponentially more money and all the problems that they create in their own lives
And other people's lives with whether it's crime or whether it's drug addiction or whether it's whatever despair that comes out of these horrific starting points that these people are from. That can be fixed
And this is like where I'm a bleeding heart
And yeah, I mean they can be fixed, but like it it sure
It hasn't been even addressed, no even addressed they
There's no talk whatsoever about looking at communities like Baltimore and saying, hey, this has been ****** from the beginning
Like what do we do?
Like, look at the red line laws
Look at the fact that
What was his name Woods?
What was the the cop that we had on?
Michael Woods he was on he was a police officer in Baltimore
Yeah, and he was working there and one of the things that he noticed was they found a rap like a, you know, a arrest sheet from like the 1970s and it showed all of the same
Exact crimes that they're dealing with in the current time, all in the same areas, and they were all happening this in like the same thing was going on all the different arrests for violence and drugs and all this different stuff and he was like Jesus Christ
This is not like and he felt this feeling like
I'm I'm in a system that's broken like you're not gonna fix this like you're just gonna keep arresting people and you you keep having this
You know the systemic equality inequality in this area, that's
Just been ****** from for decades
I mean I think that 'cause by the time you're dealing with that on that level you're you're treating symptoms
You know that they like it's, it's already
The problem has has already happened
And you know, don't get me wrong, I know people commit crimes for all kinds of reasons
I'm not saying it's all economic, but like
Also, I don't see a lot of like kids in the suburbs joining gangs right?
There is a reason there is a reason
That right, you know, the things that like really drive up the violent crime rate you know are things that have a lot to do with poverty and inequality
And I think that if you you know you talked about Appalachia, I mean like the Obama administration's like response to like all the coal, you know, like this sort of misery caused by all the coal mines closing was to, you know, just kind of sprinkle the region with
You learn to code ********
Well, that's exactly it, right?'cause like they they put up these technology training centers, so it's essentially telling people to learn to code 'cause like yeah, if you're like a 50 year old laid off coal miner, you'll definitely get the coding job and preference over the 22 year old kid. You know who just who just graduated. It's it's absurd and and then, like Trump, came in
But he said he was going to bring the jobs back and there are fewer jobs there than, you know, than ever, right?
I mean, I, I don't think that I don't think any of these people
Are are serious about helping working class people either in places like Baltimore or in places like Appalachia because you know, I think they I think the Democrats, increasingly the kind of liberalism that's dominant in the Democratic Party right now
I think isn't really about that
I think that what it's really about is trying to have like a more diverse ruling class like
I know that sounds like an oversimplification, but I really think a lot of it's just about that right?
You know that
Like what they like, to the extent they're concerned with social justice, what they're concerned about is disparity
You know that you have
More black people than white people
Who are, you know, living in poverty and going through a criminal justice system and all this stuff
And that's absolutely true, right?
That that is
And that is completely a result of the fact that
You know, up until the 1960s, we literally lived in an empire tide country. You know that in much of the United States you know there, you know we had
Jim Crow laws
You know on the on the books you know, and and there I think there's I think the horrible racial history of the United States is
The reason for that?
But what's the goal right is the goal is what you count as justice?
Having like, exactly demographically correct, proportions of every group living in poverty?
Well also this
And it's you know, being like
All of that stuff like it's ridiculous
I was just going to say like the Republicans are
Even worse, right?
I mean like Republicans, when they claim that they're like big populist
Now it's like, well, what do you actually want to do?
Do you want when they care for all do?
You want you know, like they don't support any of that stuff
Well, it's also their positions or weaponized, you know, and it's there
There's so much polar that I think it's very unhealthy to have two positions
A red position of blue position because people are so malleable
They're so easily manipulated and they want to be a part of a tribe, and they'll just subscribe to these ideas and then they they take comfort in the fact there's other people that agree with them so they get in these Facebook groups and they they just like you know, talk about stuff that everyone else in their little echo chamber agrees with and and they feel like the whole world should bend to their will
And it's just
I mean, that's
Yeah, it's a bizarre time, absolutely, I mean
That I mean we
You know what we were talking about?
Earlier about the fact that the collapse of traditional media means that everybody gets to curate, you know their
Own little media that's a problem too, right?
You know that you can
It's so easy now to just like, expose yourself to absolutely nothing all the time except people who agree with you
Because yeah, if there are only a couple million people watching like one of the you know traditional networks at any given night
Then you know what's their profit incentive
Their profit incentive is to like relentlessly pander to whatever audience they have
They have left, so if you know if you're fox
You know you you scare old, you know conservatives and you know, whatever like the MSNBC has their own version like we're talking about
But I think that like This is why I try to like go out and do debates all the time, because which like some people in this one of the things I talk about in the book, right?
Some people on the left don't like that, right?
They say that like if you're
You know, if you're like if you talk to a bad person basically right, you know they'll say, like, oh your platform, and you know that that person that's so stupid
Is a word I hate so much, but they have but
Get that more than anybody because I I you know people want to say that I'm like a fake liberal because I talked to conservatives and I'm friends with some conservatives like that is the dumbest ******* thing to ever you
We need to communicate with each other
We're supposed to be in a community
The community is the human race first of all, and then the United States 2nd
It's supposed to be a community, and if there I have a lot of friends that have completely different perspectives that than me they have a lot of friends that are like very Christian
I have friends that are very Muslim
I have friends that have, you know, no religious affiliation whatsoever
I have friends that are right wing and left wing and I don't
I don't mind
All those things, as long as you're not a suppressive person, you're not suppressing people that have an opposite position or an opposite perspective, like, why not?
What are we doing here?
Aren't we just talking to each other?
We like communicate with people that are
But when I have people on you know you'll, I'll get all this pushback like or someone like Ben Shapiro
Ben Shapiro is
A lovely guy meet him, get to know him
He's very nice
I don't agree with him a lot
Yeah, a lot on a lot of
Stuff, yeah, I mean, look if if
But I love the guy
Sure, I mean look if if you know Ben Shapiro ever wanted to like come on my show and argue with me, I would. I would 100% do that
I bet he'd do it
But I think it's OK
Well, you know
But he talks really fast
You gotta be careful 'cause it's hard
Up with him, it's like his ******* brain is on a different RPM
You gotta whenever I talk to him I try to slow things down
Slow down youngster
That's awesome, but he's very enthusiastic
Yeah, I don't agree with him on a lot of things, particularly on gay issues
He thinks that gay folks shouldn't just
They should just not do it
Which is which is ridiculous, like you're gonna
It's it's this
Strangest position, I just don't understand that position
So so like you, if you're gay, you have like a moral obligation to just be celibate for your entire life
No, you're supposed to actually engage in heterosexual sex
Yeah, what's but what's amazing is that this
That's that. Sounds like it
Well, this is where that falls apart, right?
Because this is all based on ancient writing like who?
Because God said this like who said God said this?
Who are these ******* people and what else did they say God said?
Did they say anything about zombies?
They say anything about people coming back from the dead, like what did God say?
Did I mean how much did they say?
That doesn't make sense?
Did they say anything about partying oceans and like did did anybody like lead someone to a place and part SC?'cause that doesn't seem real
Maybe someone was lying
Yeah, right, that's that's
That's that's like, yeah
I mean, anybody who does anybody who knows gay people right?
Like I have gay friends that are like you could never tell they're gay 'cause they don't
You know, they just seem
Like a man and then I have gay friends who like Oh no straight guy acts like that
Gay from space, right?
Yes, it's super gay
That's yeah, yeah, yeah
Like when you meet a super gay person, that first of all they enjoy behaving that way
That is how they like to talk. That's how they like. Like Justin martindale's. Great example my friend Justin
He's gay as **** but he's hilarious
I mean, he's hilarious with it
He's like he's a joyful gay person
You wouldn't get confused when you're around him
You wouldn't say
What do you think this guy is?
Like that guy is
Gay, you know
But like that's how he is, man
Yeah, that that's how he is and the idea is
This idea that this is he's he's supposed to make a choice to have sex with women like ****
Yeah, that's that
Sounds like a good deal for the woman to Jesus, yeah
That woman he's closing his eyes thinking about beards and ****
It's so dumb
Yeah, and and I think and also I mean we could talk to about like
OK, so there's the part in the Red Sea stuff
There's also the like slavery in the Bible, right?
Like that's you know, like?
Oh God, a ton of it, you know, and and then treating women as second class citizens condoning slavery
There's a lot of murder in the in the Bible for disrespecting people
Like how about that?
The the one guy when the kids called him bald and they seek the ******* bear to kill all the kids?
Yeah, the she bears
They killed the bear
They killed, the bears, killed the kids 'cause they called him a bald guy like
Because they called him old bald head
What the **** coming from a bald person?
Let me tell you something, that's an overreach
That's ridiculous, but it's this idea that
You don't you?
You don't think if like some kids tasty about that
They deserve the
Listen, I think there's some things that are fascinating about religious traditions that I think they can act as a scaffolding for moral behavior, and some of the like the kindest, nicest people I know are Christians, and I think that there's
Something about that sort of structure that that religious structure
When I was younger I was much more of a what you would say like a traditional, like agnostic or atheist, like I thought it was dumb
I thought the religion was dumb
I don't think it's dumb anymore and I think it's greatly beneficial to some people and I think it does give them a structure
And if you Jordan Peterson said something that really made a lot of sense
It's not whether or not I believe in God, he goes
But if you live your life like God exists, you will have a higher quality of life
And is that if you live your life like you are a part of this
Enormous community of loving beings that are all connected to this higher power and that you have this like moral obligation to be a good person, and that there's great value and benefit in that
And then there's there's a spiritual path to take of a righteous person who's really trying to do good in this world
And I think for a lot of people, religion can act as a scaffolding to substantiate and enforce those kind of positive traits and positive
Paths of life, and I think there's great benefit in that
I think it's there's great
Good in that, yeah, I mean look, I'm an atheist but you know, but I have tremendous respect for
Christians who get what you just described out of it I I have to say there are Christians who get very different things out of it, right?
You know that they that they want to like
You know, ban abortion and make gay people go back in the closet and all that stuff you know
But like but look, I mean I, I think like Cornell West, you know I, I think that's a that's a Christian
I have immense respect for us
He's have you ever met?
Him no, no I I have
He was on like so I I used to do a segment on the Michael Brooks Show and I think he was on that at
Least at least once
I miss that guy
I'm a couple times
Yeah, he was great
Yeah he was he was, he was
He was one of my my closest friends for the last couple of years before he before he passed
He's a funny dude too man
That was just
He was a very so
He was funny
Very funny guy
What he would do like the the like Nation of Islam, Obama and you know
He was just a really thoughtful, interesting guy who knew a **** load about politics
And you know, and about socialism and he was a really good guy to sort of defend these positions of democratic socialism too'cause he didn't seem like a bad person, you know, like when, and even in critiquing other people
That this this disagreed with him
I felt like he did it for the most
Part pretty reasonably, yeah
Well, I think that one thing that he really got, and I actually think he helped me to get
You know, since in the you know in the years since I met him is that
Like a lot of people who who agree with with his position with my position don't
Think nearly enough about what's going to be appealing to
Like most ordinary people, right?
You know that they have 'cause like if you're just
You know, like which is one of the reasons I wrote the book that like that stuff was starting to drive me crazy
You know that like it seems like what a lot of people want to do is be part of an in Group and like yell at everybody who who doesn't
You know who isn't like already on board with like every single thing on on a checklist and and that's just not going to
That's just not gonna work, right?
I mean, that's like like if you actually care about this stuff, right?
Like if you think, yeah, I
I think that we have like a grotesquely unequal society
I think that you know
I think we need to have National Health care
We need to, you know, not fight all these wars around the world
All of that stuff and like you're actually talking about this stuff'cause you care about it
Which, let's be honest, not everybody does
I mean some people
Politics is like a weird hobby for them, right?
But like if you really care about that stuff
Then you want to present that in a way that's going to appeal to ordinary people who haven't read everything that you've read, who who aren't like, necessarily don't have all the same like subculture you know sensibilities that
That you have so like yeah, I mean it drives me
It drives me crazy when I see people who who want all the things that
You know all the things that I want who are instead of trying to, you know, find ways that they can explain this to people who might like you, know, agree with them on some things, disagree with them on some things, like a lot of people, like most people aren't like centrists in the way that the media means when they say centrist right, which is like the you know whatever
Socially liberal, fiscally conservative
All that stuff, right?
Like like most people
I think just have weird combinations of views right, which is because
Like if you spend all of your time thinking about politics and tweeting about politics and all of that stuff, you're like kind of an unusual person
Most people don't do that
They have other things that they have to do, so they might have political reactions to things they have political impulses
But like, they haven't necessarily thought through every single thing you know to
They probably don't have the time
Yeah, that of course they don't have the time
If you want to get involved deeply into the weeds and politics, you're gonna it's tremendous amount of hours for years and years and years just to get a base understanding of what's going on
That's why it's so impressive when you talk to someone who really does know a lot about politics
Like whenever I talk to like my friend Kyle Kulinski never talked to him about politics like
That ************ knows a lot like so when we had the end of the World Podcast when there was the election this past year when we brought him, I I brought him out like you're the voice of reason
Like you actually understand what's going on here, and he called it every step of the way
You see all these people that had like these conspiracy theories about?
Trump, like oh the mail in votes
He explained he's like the mail in votes are going to be majority Democrat votes
Yeah, and he goes
So if you look at Trump getting way ahead in places like Pennsylvania and there's a couple of these other states he's like, this is what's going on
There's a lot of the Republican folks are going to show up, and they're going to vote in person and then the mail in is going to be overwhelmingly democratic
And then he's probably going to lose a lot of numbers overnight and
They're like, oh, he went
We went to bed and he was ahead
But then it's like Kyle Kolinsky explained it, explained it all on the podcast, clearly called it just caught, and that's because
That's a guy who's been like really studying politics at a like very comprehensive level for a long time, and he can give you the like
The real information about
It yeah and most people like I said they they don't have the time
I mean especially when you're in a increasingly precarious economy where lots of people
Like might have a couple of jobs and like drive an Uber on the side, you know like just just 'cause they're
How to **** Do you have time?
Yeah, of course
Unless you're just listening to podcasts all the time and you know like really educational podcasts on on on politics like
And even then, you're going to get a cursory sort of understanding of
It yeah, absolutely so
I mean, I think that what you know what you should really be?
Would you approach people to try to convince them of the things that are?
That are important to you
Like you shouldn't start from a place of do you?
You know, do you have all the like, right?
You know, to, uh, you have all the right positions
And like all of this stuff, because you know, by definition, look if everybody you know
If everybody agreed with me about all this stuff, we'd be living in a very different country right now, right?
You know, like like so, so I think that
You need to assume the real question like is does somebody have like?
Values that are just like totally incompatible with mine and or do they just have like?
Economic interests that are going to like lead them to like they're never going to agree with me, right?
Like like like, like Jeff Bezos
And I are never going to agree on like what?
Tax rates should be for obvious reasons, right?
You know, like
Would like you to talk to him though I think that'll be an interesting conversation
I've never heard him discuss money in terms of like wealth and taxes and things like
I wonder what his position is on that
I feel like there's a system that's in place that you would almost be
Negligent if you didn't take advantage of it
You know, if if you're a guy who's making a lot of
Money and this is
This is how you could pay X amount of taxes
And this is like these are your deductions, and this is like the law
You follow the law tuiti and then the rest of it
You can give out charitably, if you choose to
But like, I wonder what?
His position is on all that stuff, like when you've got that kind of money
Yeah, I mean, I think that my suspicion is that it starts to look very different, right you
Know once you get all
Yeah right, you know like you're going to, you know like you're going to feel very
It's really hard to convince somebody that like who's benefiting that much from the
Way things are
Now do you see the image of him at the New Year's party with his girlfriend?
No, Jamie help me out. This is so important because someone needs to superimpose this with, uh, an image of Jeff Bezos from like, 1989
Like what he looked
Like when he started Amazon versus what he looks like now
I mean when did he start?
Amazon must be in the 90s
It was an online book look thing, yeah and he was like this kind
Of nerdy guy
Now look at him and look at his girlfriend
I mean this is amazing
Like he's got ******* heart and
The heart sunglasses
In his defense, in his defense, this was actually a party that was, for it was like a disco themed party
So you're supposed to dress like this, so everybody dressed like that
They all dress silly
It was just
It was a fun party
So he had these glasses that were like heart shaped lenses and he's got this bombshell girlfriend who's leaning on him
I love it
I love excess
I love when people are preposterous
Yeah, that's why I love it
Yeah no, no
I mean fair enough like
And again, I don't blame it
Like if you're not like
You know doing some things that I do think you know Bezos has done
But like, you know
But if you know, but there are like a list you know, like if you're not like busting unions and this and that, right?
Then like look
If you look at that, just look at
How it started?
I wasn't going
They did it
Someone did it
Ha ha ha
Look at that
That's ******* amazing
Work hard folks, and you don't have to be a dork
Imagine shave your head, get a bombshell girlfriend
Ooh I love it
Yeah yeah yeah
Happy days are here, let's go
Hundreds of millions of dollars help
Let's guys live different lives
He's lived billions of dollars, hundreds of billions, not hundreds of 1,000,000 Sir hundreds of billions
That's outrageous, yeah, now I mean is on track to be the first trillionaire, right?
That's that's what?
Oh, there's trillionaires out
There yeah, OK, are there?
I thought they were saying like in 2020 they were saying that like
At the end of the OK
No, the trillionaires are all non public
See if you think about like the royal families like they they don't have to disclose their wealth
These people that have literally they own countries
I mean if you think I mean we don't have to name the countries but there I know for a fact 'cause I have talked to people who are in fact billionaires
We're very wealthy business people that laugh and they've told me the royal families and some of these countries are worth trillions of dollars and they don't have to disclose it
So when you get this public list of who the richest people in the world are, that's the richest people publicly
That you know, like they have to disclose it
They're not oligarchs, they're not people that are in charge, literally in charge of the oil
All the oil in a particular part of the world where billions of dollars are coming out every day
Like come on, there's a **** load of money involved in
That yeah, and I mean The thing is, even if you're not like one of those people, right?
Like you know the the non you know non public trillionaires you know from those countries that you're talking about
Like one thing that I think people often don't think about enough when they think about stuff like this is OK
If you have a system where you're going to get like wealth gaps, that extreme right, you know that you can
You can have people who are trillionaires maybe or who at least have hundreds of billions of dollars
Then you're just not going to have political democracy
The way that we should have it because you know the idea that like everybody is going to have the same amount of influence on the government is just ridiculous
You know, once you get to that level, right?
Because like if you
Work at an Amazon warehouse and you want to like call your congressman
You'll be lucky if you have a conversation with
An intern, but Jeff Bezos can make a phone call to Biden
Yeah no absolutely Biden would take the call
Anybody like hey ************
Because if he told him, right, you know
Listen bro, take a couple extra Advil and let's have a conversation
I need to be awake for this one
Yeah, which which you might have to
Provide him but yeah
What what happened to the left, where somewhere along the line this get back to your book on the subject that we started with?
Good good Yep
What happened to the left, where they are willing to
They there's something that happened where they became
The the side that accepts censorship and even promotes it
My thought is that something morphed during the time where social media became
It became a tool of a lot of right wing people and this is actually like
Pre Trump but was certainly accentuated during the Trump administration
It's like people had a chance to anonymously say things through social media that maybe they wouldn't say around the office because like say if you have like 10 people in your office and nine of them are Democrats and you're a Republican, you really have to keep your mouth shut
Right, but when you get on Twitter, you can talk all kinds of crazy **** or read it or whatever, and then all the other people that agree with you
They they get attracted to you and then you form these echo chambers and then some of them are very aggressive in sort of pushing these ideas out and
We saw that a lot with like Milo Yiannopoulos and there was a lot of like these like very influential online right wing people that were
You know they had like cheers from the fans and they had like these throngs of supporters and they silenced those guys
They pulled those guys off social media and they found out that it was effective to do that and then it became a thing that they got really into where they're into silencing, dissenting opinions and it's gone so far that they're doing it to left wing people
That step even remotely outside the bounds of the orthodoxy remotely outside the bounds of what they consider to be the rigid
This the rigid maintaining of this ideology
They step outside of that
They they silence people and they're pulling videos down left and right off of Instagram and Tik T.O.K
And and and Twitter
In some ways, Twitter is like less censorship oriented, even though people think of Twitter as being like a very censored place, it's one of the more lenient
Online platforms, but what the **** happened?
Yeah, I mean the Milo case is interesting actually, because I think that I mean, I understand that like he got kicked off of Twitter and that was definitely part of it
But like he was still riding pretty high after that happened like I think that in my Lowe's case and this is what you know when I kind of try to tell people
That, like the ways that like some people on the left like want to like deal with figures like this like forget morality for a second
They're just not going to work right?
So like, here's what I mean by that, right?
Milo's career was built on people trying to like, you know, stop him and Heckle him, and you know stop him from speaking and all that stuff
You know that, like my view on that guy, is that honestly you know he he wouldn't be that interesting if he just showed up on a college campus and like just talked and nobody, you know nobody had erupted him, but like that was why?
Like 'cause he's like, oh, he's like speaking edgy forbidden truths
And like you know it was the dangerous ideas to her
That's what it's called like
I think where Milo really got dropped like like where Milo like was really ended, right?
And I'm not saying there aren't other cases, they're more like what you're talking about, but it seems to me that we're Milo was really ended was when the right dropped him after the age of consent
Stuff like he
He was going to speak at CPAC and they cancelled that he had his book deal, you know, got dropped
But it wasn't just the right dropping
Him, I mean that was across the board people dropped
Him well, I
I mean, everybody else had always hated him, right?
But then like after that
You know that that was just a thing where it it felt like it was so unacceptable to so many people that it was
It's very rare that one idea
Becomes a thing that completely stops all the momentum that someone had like
He was a very popular cultural figure and then he vanished like his essentially been not just deep platform, but removed from the cultural conversation
Yeah, I mean like a week before that happened he was on Bill Maher, right, you?
Know that's that's so, yeah, that's
No, then wild and Bill Maher was praising him and comparing him to Christopher Hitchens
He was Christopher Hitchens, which which I do not think Miley Innopolis deserves
But yeah, look, I think that
I mean, I think that there are a couple things going on there with the the with
With censorship I mean I would push back a little on
On the idea
You know that the that the right isn't like plenty pro censorship in lots of ways
Like like I think
I think they are
No, I wouldn't say that I, I think, listen, no, I I think that people politically like to silence their opposing or their opposition when someone opposes their position
OK, well so we disagree on
I think they
Like to do that, but I think is like the left is traditionally been the ACLU, which those Jewish lawyers supported
The idea of Nazis
Being allowed to say whatever they want because they said that this the counter to that the opposite of that is the suppressing speech, and it's a terrible dangerous road to go down
And the answer to bad ideas is not silencing those ideas, it's better ideas
But they were absolutely right
That's my position, and that's an old school liberal position, but that doesn't exist that much in the
Left wing of today
Yeah, I mean that's 100% my position I. I think that and and and I think that it's really dangerous that a lot of people like, even though most of the stuff you're talking about is driven more by like mainstream liberals
That, like it's not like you know whatever you know, people running like these insanely profitable social media companies, right?
It's not like they want all the stuff I want, right?
You know, but like but but I I, I see way too many people on the left going along with it
And I think
It's super short sighted, right?
Because like how did it happen though?
Do you think it happened by what I'm saying that like they found it was effective for silencing people they felt was problematic
So they just adopted these ideas and then they sort of shifted their their their ethics
I think there's some of that. I think that I think that a lot of it is that a lot of people feel powerless to change the world in any way that actually matters, and so they end up getting sucked into these like culture, war, distractions about who said what in 1995 that we can like get mad at them about. And you know what, the?
You know, whatever like, just just whatever like weird nonsense people are arguing about this week, right?
The Green Eminem, you know and and like some of this stuff is part of that, right?
Like they have a
That like if you don't like if you can't actually, you know change the world like create a more equal society or whatever you can at least get somebody fired
You can at least get somebody kicked off and then you felt like you've won something, and I think that that's like I think it's incredibly dangerous because like people who want, for example
You know Spotify to to kick you off, you know there there's a
There's a move on, you know petition, you know for them to do that that like
What I always say is, even though and the thing that really gets me about the calls for censorship is OK, I think there are principled reasons that you know free speech is important and we should have like open
You know, open debates about controversial ideas
I think there are ways that we have a better society if we do that, but also
I think it's it's crazy that anybody who basically agrees with me about politics would support
Increased corporate censorship, right?
Because if you have like some like social media company, right?
You know that's that's going to be owned
You know, like they're going to have, you know, some CEO who's partying like Bezos in that you know in that picture you know, like is, are they?
You know whose side are they going to take with their future things where people say that something is misinformation, you know that they you know 'cause like
Right exactly exactly and by what definition is it misinforming?
Information because the problem is
Is that every every political argument is to some extent an argument about facts, right? Like that? Like in 2002, even though my position was, you know, as like a college like anti war activist. Was that even if Saddam Hussein did have weapons of mass destruction and still be against the war? 'cause you know, I think the rationale still wouldn't made sense to me
But like that was like part of what people were arguing about was whether there's mass destruction weapons of mass destruction
And look if you had had social media companies in 2002 in the way that you do now
And they had misinformation policies. Who would be more likely to get bounds for misinformation? People who said who agreed with the, you know, the government agreed with the New York Times said there were WMD's or people who thought that, like Bush administration, officials were conspiring to lie to the public
You know, like and
I think that who's going to like if there's something that comes out tomorrow about like some horrible labor practice at Amazon
Who are these companies more likely to side with, right?
You know, people who say, yeah, they did this thing right, or or the the company saying no, it's it's
It's a lie
It's misinformation and
I, I think the the issue with free speech is always
Who gets to decide right like and I think this is the same reason
I mean look, this is the same reason I don't like
You know, I don't like the I don't like the CRT laws either, right?
Because I I don't like the idea that there are going to be people who are second guessing
You know what happened in some, you know some classroom to say like was this too close to like you know to to to one of these ideas that we don't like, right?
Did you talk to your students about something that like flew a little bit too close to the sun?
Of CRT, and that that makes me nervous
By CRT, you're talking
About critical race theory, just some people
Oh yeah, sorry critical yeah sorry
Critical race theory, yeah, and I think that like actual critical race theory, their parts
I agree with their parts that I disagree with, but
I don't wanna live in a system
I want to live in the kind of society where when there's salt like some controversial idea that's out there, you know, like that like people can talk about it and debate about it
And like if you can, you know like you could discuss it with students in a classroom like I think
Ideally, the way that education should work
It should foster critical thinking like instead of like
This is exactly what you should think
You know you should be encouraging students to like
You know to think about it, you know more clearly and to argue about it and to you know and to decide
And to decide what they think, right?
You know, because like ultimately, if you
Want people to be citizens in a democracy right to the extent that we have one of those like that's that's what you want
Like that's that's how you want them to
Grow up, I hope, yeah, absolutely you want discussion
This way you sort out if you're an observer
The way you sort out who has the better argument is to watch them discuss you
Remember the gore Vidal
And we've got Buckley speeches, you know, which is a great documentary
William F yes
What is it called best of enemies?
Best of enemies
It's a fantastic documentary where it shows that
I mean, this is the difference in our culture today versus then these guys I believe is on ABC
These guys had this like really highly rated debate series
I think they did like
How many of them they do, six of them or something?
Like that I don't remember how
Many, but they did a few
Yeah, they did quite a few so they were going back and forth
And William F
Buckley was a famous conservative
Gore Vidal was a famous liberal and they had these fascinating discussions and they did them on national television
And they became this point of discussion through the entire country in the world where people sat down
And you know, some people took Buckley side
Some people did Gore Vidal side
And this is how we sort things out
We don't sort things out by silencing people
We don't sort things out by saying you have an unacceptable position because it doesn't fit in with what I'm saying or it causes this or that, and it it's just and it's a
It's a dangerous way
To to set a precedent because you're filtering ideas, you're filtering ideas through your own standards, and I don't think that's good because I I think it's it's it's bad for you too
It's bad for your ideas 'cause your ideas can't stand the vetting of of of an opposing position
Then your ideas might suck and you maybe should look at them
So maybe you're lazy and you don't want to go through the hassle of debate or or of like serious discourse, but if your ideas can't handle that kind of a discussion, you probably shouldn't have them
You shouldn't adopt them
You shouldn't be holding on to them
That's my position on all this, and I think this whenever someone is trying to silence someone
This it's more political than it is anything it's more
This person has an incredible amount of influence and they don't align up very rigidly with what our ideology is, and they could cause us problems if they discuss certain things and
An unorthodox way and we don't like that, so we're going to silence them and we're going to pretend that there's something that they're not, and we're going to do that openly, and it's going to be
Obvious, yeah, and I think, and I think especially like look if you think the status quo is totally fine
That like everything is the way that it should be
I can, I guess, understand
Who the **** thinks that?
I don't know
That's a crazy argument, right?
There's not a single person alive that thinks everything is perfect, right?
I mean, if so I haven't met them, but
I never met him, so I don't think he can have that argument
Yeah, so I mean, if you think that there are things
Really, seriously wrong with the society that you live in
Right now have
Discussion then then you like the last thing that you wanna do is to make it harder to get your ideas out about that out there so you know so people can
People can talk about them people
Can you know people can can hear about them, right?
Like I, I think that if you
You know, if you want if you want to have like, you know, in my case you think that like we have, you know we have way too much economic inequality
I think it's particularly crazy to support like more corporate censorship, because, again
Who do you think who?
Do you think is going to get censor right like like it?
Like if it's you know
I mean, if there's some Starbucks worker who's, like, you know, got fired when they're trying to organize a union, and Starbucks says that no, they weren't really fired for that
It was really, you know, because they you know whatever is they
Showed up late, yeah?
You know they showed up late
I mean, OK, so somebody is lying
Right, do we want you know Twitter or whatever platform to be making decisions about like who's lying and like oh which which which of these sides is misinformation
I don't right like not just because like I support free speech, though I do, but also just because like I don't, I don't trust at all, right?
You know that they're going to take
The side that I would want to on that course
So one of the things that I talked about when I made a video recently when they said that I was setting saying misinformation, and I was saying, well, look at what used to be misinformation just a few months ago
That's now fact
There's like the lab leak theory
The lab leak theory
If you said that before you get kicked off of social media, now it's on the front cover of Newsweek
The the idea that if you get vaccinated, you can still spread COVID and you could still get COVID
Yeah, I mean it's yeah
That was crazy talk
Rachel Maddow was on television, saying the virus stops with you
You can't spread it, you can't catch it
It stops with you if you're vaccinated
That's not true
We know that's not true, so that was if you said that I think people were vaccinated
Can still catch COVID and they could still spread COVID
That would be misinformation, but now that's accepted as fact
There's a bunch of those
Yeah, I mean I think in that case
I think that might be less like
You know people didn't know that and more just kind of
Rachel Maddow is an idiot because like if you, you know because what they always said is like the like
You know, whatever it is, even for, like the original version of COVID that you know wild COVID whatever they call it, right they
Like you know whatever 90 something you know percent you know like rate of effectiveness of like Pfizer or things you know
Yeah, but if you read the literature, that's not
Really even accurate
I mean what you know, but but this is the thing like whatever you think the effectiveness rate is, right?
Like it was never 100% and if and if like Rachel Maddow thought it was 100%, that's like that. One seems more like an issue of, like Rachel Maddow not understanding, you know, medical science, but
Again, I don't, I don't
Know that would make it misinformation
Right, yeah and
So it's the same thing that's
My point, I mean, I mean like actually so here's an example
I completely agree with at the beginning of the pandemic
Like back in was like March, you know 2020 maybe until sometime in April
Fauci the CDC everybody was saying don't wear a mask, right?
You know and
You know, as we established, I'm not some you know, like there are a lot of things that I would rather spend my time on than like trying to sort through all the COVID stuff but like
Even high at the time was like, well, you would think that doesn't make sense
Why not, right, like you know what?
Why would that like the reasons they were given didn't make sense to me
And then they kind of said
I mean like I know some people say this is an oversimplification, but I think if you go back and look at this is kind of what they said
Oh, we lied about that
So that like all the masks, wouldn't get, you know get bought up
That's not an oversimplification simplification at all, that's exactly what they said and
And and which is crazy to like the thing that's crazy to me is like OK?
If you're gonna do that, and I think you should have done it, but if you're gonna do that like you have to resign after that, right?
Like, once you've once you've like shown that you were willing to like lie, lie to people like like like if if you think it's important that people trust you, know medical authorities which you know
I mean, I can see why public health crisis you know that you think that was important, like what's going to undermine that
More right people, you know, random people on the Internet, you know like saying things that you know that might not be true about it, or you know
Or people going on podcasts. You know who who might say things that are wrong or like CD's
See like admitting that they were lying about something, something important that's gonna that's gonna undermine that
That's going to undermine that like crazy and I would not have wanted people who were pointing things like this out at the time that like oh the stated reasons why masks were supposed to be bad didn't really make sense, which they didn't write, you know, 'cause it was like?
Well, it's going to encourage people to be reckless
It's like, well, OK, that's an argument
It's like seatbelts, right?
I don't think that was the courage
That was one that was one that they used right?
No, but not fancy
I don't think fouchy
Used that argument. Yeah, I think The Who did like
I think there was like if you go with their website, I think that's one of the things that they said there at one point
But they also say, well, people don't know how to use them properly
So like they're going to like end up, it's going to end up being more dangerous
You know there are a bunch of things they threw out
None of it quite seemed to add up
You know, even at the you know, even at the time and then again then they came out and said no
Actually, like it's not like the science changed, right?
You know when that happened and I and I think that I certainly wouldn't have wanted people who were pointing that out to not be able to do that because of some misinformation policy
Don't you think?
That the issue really was that people were afraid
And when people are afraid, then they'll will support harsher measures to ensure safety
And one of those measures would be to silence people that may be spreading information that could get people in trouble, so they're willing to compromise their values because they think there's a greater good to be high, like there's a different time, and that's one of the more dangerous things about a thing like a pandemic
Because people will compromise their positions because they feel like there's a greater good to be achieved, and so we need to silence these people like this was during the presidential campaign
And this is one of the things that I found out that I that I was really shocked by that Twitter band, Bret Weinstein had a thing that he had put together called
Unity 2020 and the idea was
Instead of this rigid two party system where you have people that left and people the right, what if you had like a really reasonable person?
Well balanced person from the right and a really reasonable, well balanced person from the left and we brought them together
Very popular people and put together like a party and call it like the Unity Party
And so he made a
Twitter page and and Twitter banned the page
And what was the reason the
Gift some ******** reason, but the reason was they were terrified that these popular podcasters and people were going to take votes away from the left
Because these people like Weinstein and his wife or their progressives
I mean they taught at a very progressive university
There's a lot of people that are progressive that feel disenfranchised with some of the standards
Of the Democratic Party, and they weren't really interested in a guy like Biden
Who is this career politician who's basically full of **** and having him be president like aren't there aren't more reasonable, more attractive alternatives, so they put together this thing and Twitter0:00:00
In the 90
Six that this. This is exactly the same. They were worried that like that can FCK up an election if you get enough people that say hey you guys are making a lot of sense, I'm going to vote Unity 2020. If that becomes a big thing, like in the Republicans aren't going to vote Unity 2020, they're going to stick with their base. They're going to stick with their guy. They're Trump people
We got a guy. He's our winner and they were worried and concerned. I think that this Unity 2020 thing, even if it's like 10,000 votes in this place and 5000 votes at that
Yeah it does
It doesn't take that much to like
It doesn't take that much to swing elections
No, definitely not. Yeah, I mean look, I certainly wouldn't have voted for you to do 2020
I think that the Democrats and Republicans are too close together in their positions
There's there are too many things where where they that they basically agree on that
I don't like you know, but but I certainly don't think that you should be banned for Twitter
It's crazy, but that's the thing about these social media platforms is that they've become too big
For you know like this
They have too much influence
It's not as simple as like this is a private business
They can do whatever they want like this private business is the way that people distribute information to billions and billions of people
The idea that Facebook is just a private business is bananas'cause it literally influences worldwide elections and it comes standard on your phone
In many countries it
Is the Internet to a lot of people in other countries the idea that that's just a private company is crazy?
Well, the thing that's particularly crazy to me is like look, I understand like a like a conservative or libertarian
You know who'd say that, uh, their private business
They could do whatever they want, 'cause that's what they would say about everything, right?
You know that, like private businesses should be able to do what they want and like you know and
You know I'm a I'm a socialist I really disagree with that right?
But like what's crazy to me is when people who are on the left who say that who want there to be more
You know lots of restrictions that I agree with, right?
You know on on private businesses, then turn around and say, oh, this isn't really a free speech issue'cause it's like a private business, it's
Right 'cause it supports their their desires
Like wait a second guys
You know which one is it right?
I mean like like
Like I said, you know, because if you if you are on the left and I don't mean like if you're a liberal but like if you're a real leftist, then I would say that you know a lot of the core of like your worldview is that you understand that private businesses can have a crazy amount of power over people
Lives and that can be, you know in certain respects, as dangerous as as you know, the power of governments and and of course the two are not unrelated, right?
Because private businesses like we're talking about earlier have a crazy amount of influence over what the over, what the government does
Do you like, I think, wanting private corporations?
To be more powerful, because you think that it's going to silence like just the people that you don't like, that's the problem
Seems like it it just it just always seems like you haven't thought this through at
All no, but that that's the problem and this is where I come to you with this
Like how do we get people on the left to realize that this is a tremendous error and that is not?
Just I understand that they think that short term this is beneficial 'cause they can silence people they disagree with
But to understand that for
I mean, it sounds a little grand, but for the human race this is a terrible thing to have
It's a terrible thing to have because you're discouraging discourse, and it's one of the most important things that we have is the ability to talk things out
The ability to find out how a person thinks and to consider how that person thinks
And whether or not that
Would apply to you like can I use these thoughts is that they have a point that I haven't considered
Is there something about the way they're looking at the world that maybe there is a perspective that I have either ignored or I just haven't been aware of that will enlighten me and change the way I look at things?
Maybe I look at a person
Coming from a different walk of life from a different part of the world or different, what a different education, whatever it is like
Let me take in their point of view and see see if this is helpful
See if I can help
See, we can we we need more friends than we need enemies we don't need more enemies so this silencing people or you're just crazy
Enemies, you're polarizing
We need communication
We need it for most people
Want the same thing when I turn in terms of like what do you want from life?
You want your friends, your family, your loved ones to be happy?
You want to be able to pursue your interests and your dreams and your goals
You have these ideas and these projects you want to do these goals you want to achieve
You want to be able to pursue those
And you want to not be hammered by ******** while you're trying to do that
And you alsoUnknown
Want to be?
A good person like that's universal stuff
Then it comes to like, well, what is a good person like?
What should you be allowed to do and what you should you not be allowed to do?
How do you infringe upon the rights of your neighbors with your ideas?
Do do you support the community with your ideas is beneficial to people?
And these are all where things get weird and then we get ideologically driven into a left or right category
And I believe that many people that are either on the left or on the right are just looking for a gang
They're just looking for a gang to be in and they find it and they just adopt their positions and they adopt this predetermined pattern of thinking
And this ideology that they subscribe to because other people on the left do it, or other people in the right do it
And when you do it, those people in the right like yeah, good for you
Good for you, Ben
You're thinking the right way
Now you're on our side and there's like for human beings
There's a great feeling of camaraderie that comes with that
You're you're part of a tribe
It's very attractive
And it's it's that's a problem
Yeah, and I think it's also a problem when, like, how are the tribes being divided up and is it in a way that's going to actually advance the things that you want, right?
Like as if?
If it's really about like different regions of the country, or like you know for the diminishing number of people still watch cable news, you know which cable news channel you know you, you you watch
And you know, basically, it's it's like you know, Red team versus Blue Team culture, war stuff, right then?
Then I guess the question is, are you ever going to get the kinds of systemic changes that would really help people to do a lot of the things we just talked about right?
Like have like?
You know, be able to, you know, for example, like lots of people can't spend very much time with their families
You know 'cause, 'cause 'cause they have to work all the time
You know lots of people can't do the things they want to do in their life because
You know they can't go to school, you know, because you know like higher education because you know they they can't
You know they can afford it or they they don't want to be like saddled with decades
You know of of debt about it, and and so the question is like how are you going to achieve?
Those things, and if you're if there's somebody standing in the way, who who is it actually right?
Is it somebody who's a member of you know, the elite who has like genuine power, right?
And who's whose interests might not let coincide with with your interest, right?
Because like there are, you know, like if you had a union at your workplace, or if you had like
You know, then their profits would go down, or if you tax them more to pay for some of the things we're talking about, you know like that, you know, like that would be bad for them
Is it them or is it like your uncle who, like you know, whatever like like you know, voted for Trump or something, right?
Like like is is which?
Which one of those people should should you get mad about?
And I think that the problem is that a lot of people are trained to just like fixate on this
Whatever, just passing ******** is going on in the news cycle
You know that like what are people mad about?
This minute you know it's it's going to be something else in 12 hours, right?
You know, but like there there there's this sort of constant
Outrage cycle that I think is fed by the profit incentives of of media companies because they have to hold on to the audience they
Have left well
Also, they have advertisers
A lot of those advertisers you know brought to you by Pfizer
They have these ideas that you have to subscribe to, and if you don't subscribe to those ideas
Then they don't want to support your program, and this is like either
A said or unsaid thing
It's like I was listening to this thing where these people were talking about people in positions of power
Like how do you get these like sort of cookie cutter politicians?
Are they told what to do or are they the kind of people that will do what they think and say what they think?
Other people want them to say, and I think there's a lot of that
There's a lot of they don't really necessarily have these principled positions
What they're doing is they're saying the thing they think that people want them to say they they're saying the thing they believe people want to hear and that that's going to advance them in their career
And there are these, you know, we don't have to name the names, but we know these people
These cookie cutter type politicians we know are full of **** but they say things that are the right things to say given the current political or social climate
Yeah, I mean look, remember and and they'll also say what they think they have to say, like at a given point
And then it's like completely forgotten six months later, sometimes right? Like that. Like, think about the 2020 election
Like all of those Democrats who some of them said at the beginning of the primaries that they agreed with Bernie about Medicare for all but even the ones who didn't, right?
They would all say, oh, we at least think there should be this public option
Where everybody should be able to like maybe
Buy into some sort of public health insurance, whatever
And that was like the entire debate. There were like 100, you know whatever I don't, I don't know how many democratic debates there were
It felt like a million, but they have like however many there were
This was always at least like 20 minutes like every single one of those like they would go on and on about this
But then like somehow now
That's just disappeared, right?
Nobody is like like like now Biden President
It still says on his campaign website
You know that that never got taken down, right?
That he wants there to be this public health insurance option
Kamala Harris, who said at one point that she agreed with Bertie about Medicare for all, is the vice president
A lot of these other people are, you know, Pete Buttigieg, you know, said he wanted at least Medicare for all who wanted
And like he's you know, he's in the cabinet
There are all these people who are back to being senators
And it's it's like, well, that's what they you know when they had to position themselves to win that primary, they said that they cared about
Like all you know, the millions of Americans who don't have health care or they like 1,000,000 more who maybe even do have health care
But they said they were going to decriminalize marijuana and release everybody that
Was in jail for it
Yeah, once that
It's all ******** like it's all ******** with that
That is the sort of stuff that we're talking about that they don't really believe these things
They're saying these things because they believe this is what people want to hear, and that gets those people out to the polls that get
That's get to get those people out to the booths and get them to vote, and this is unfortunately where we find ourselves as a culture until we can read minds and Elon Musk
Hurry up with that technology. We need to be actually able to read people's
Minds bring it back to you
So yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know that I want
A lot to be able to read my mind, you're gonna read it
You can read his mind too though, and you're going to see, Oh my God
Why did you write?
This book, yeah, I wrote this book because I was ****** *** like I think more than any other books that I've read and it came out of like intense frustration that I was feeling at that time because I saw a lot of people who I think like
On paper you know they agree with me about like most of what I've said tonight, maybe not the, you know, maybe not the free speech part, but like you know, most of the rest of it, like who were doing all of these things that seem to me like they were either feeding into these absolutely ridiculous sideshows that like stop people from actually focusing on these issues that we're talking about
You know, like you know the the title, right?
The title example you know canceling comedians
You know people who would like
Freak out, you know about like what Dave Chappelle says in a stand up special, as if like the things that you say in a stand up special or like an editorial that you're writing for the New York Times about like exactly what you want to happen, right?
Like then like every every sentence you know, Dave Chappelle has said in the stand up special is literally what he thinks
And you know, and I think that like one to anybody, you're trying to appeal to, like, actually
Build some kind of like political program to actually accomplishing the stuff we've talked about, like what does that make you look like that makes you look like an overgrown hall monitor, right?
Nobody is going to want to follow that person anywhere, nor should they write like that
They 'cause, 'cause that's that's just
Incredibly damaging and unappealing and and I and I wanted like, I mean it's funny because I I think that like
When I sort of use that as the example in the title, right?
Like I was kind of trying to come up with like the most ridiculous example that I could come up with, right?
Like you know that like people would be like
You know, in terms of like ridiculous priorities or sort of people being like weird, moralistic scolds like
You know what would be the biggest example?
Not getting mad at like corporate CEOs who bust unions not, you know, not getting mad at like you know politicians who commit war crimes but you know or or you know like maybe you get mad at those people too
But like somehow
You know my my friend
I disagree with him about a lot
A lot of things, a lot of things, but the but he is my friend Dave Smith, you know, heard him talk
About the outrage budget right, you know?
How dare you disagree with Dave Smith about anything?
Well, I'm pretty sure that he disagrees with a whole lot of things
You agreed with us that earlier, but
No, it's awesome, I'm just
Joking, yeah, but no
I mean like probably I think he is a
I think he is a good guy and he's you know
I mean I've I've been
You know, I've been on this show several times and he's well, he's yeah he has, he has
It's thought out perspectives
You may agree or may not agree, but you can see where where he's coming from
Yeah, I could see where it's coming from and the other thing that I I really respect about him is that I think that like a lot of a lot of libertarians
Like, even though they'll like agree on paper, you know like that like with you know, yeah, we shouldn't be fighting
You know we shouldn't be fighting these wars, you know we
We should like
There shouldn't be all these people in prison or whatever
It seems like in practice what really gets them excited is like tax cuts, right?
And I think that
And I think Dave is genuinely not like that
I think that he actually like like devotes way as far as I've ever been able to see
He actually devotes way less time to stuff like that than to like the United States backing this genocidal sat in war in in Yemen like
That's the big thing with Dave
It's it's interventionist foreign policy and the corporate backing of these horrible regime change wars
That's that's the thing that he hates more than anything, and the actual cost of human lives and suffering
You know he's a deeply compassionate person, he really
Firmly opposes these things and he wants to talk about them whenever he can
It's one of those things where I mean he talked on my podcast about how that got him kind of booted off of those political talk shows on cable
Nobody wants to hear about dead kids in Yemen like what they're what they want to
Hear about is like whatever culture war thing people are screaming about each other, you knowUnknown
Whether that Upenn swimmer should be able to compete with women, yeah
By the way I love the thing that I love most about that example is whatever you think about it, right?
Like and I you know
I mean look if if I had to like actually think about it pressing or whatever, let them
You know I don't care, right, you know
But like that whatever you think about it
Like the idea that everybody is going to get this excited about something happens in Ivy League swim meet
Like that they had, like it's like, really, that's what you care about
Like rich kids like swimming like that
That's that's not really what I care about, right?
Like I know, it's not what I want people to care about, so so I mean whatever
But it's a
It's also, but it's it's a lightning rod for this discussion of like what is a woman?
And but this is a new part of the ideology
This is a new discussion, like what makes a woman?
Is it biology or is it how you identify is how you feel?
Or is it your chromosomes and?
This when it comes to sports sports, is where the rubber heats hits the road and that's why it's this sort of it's like see we told you there's a difference when someone is lapping people and they're they're identifying as female, but they're a biological male and they're destroying the competition
But when they competed as a biological male, which
Was just a little while
Ago they were not very good
They were OK, but they weren't
They weren't nowhere near the top ten, and now they're dominant
The number one in the country like this is a it's a
It's a very interesting discussion of where the rubber meets the road in terms like what defines
Who you are and and also like are we talking about how you treat a person or are we talking about competition and so there's a reason why men can't compete with women like as a biological male?
You who identifies the biological male you are not allowed to compete in the women's division. There's a reason why there's a division between men and women so
When we make this distinction, what?
What is the criteria that we allow someone to cross that distinction and be a female or be a male?
And this is nothing to do with cruelty or bigotry or discrimination
This is just a discussion about what is a woman and what is a man and sports
Or a great way to sort that out when it comes to this particular aspect of it
The physical aspect of being a female or a male another is birth
You know, like can you get pregnant?
Can you give birth?
I mean, if there's a competition like who's going to create the most babies and it's males versus females and it's people who identify versus?
As a female versus people who are biologically female, well the biological females are going to dominate that competition
I know, right?
No, I'm saying no
Well, you know I'm saying it's like it's where the rubber meets the road in in terms of like these ideological discussions, which are valid discussions, they're valid discussions
I I know what you're I, I know, yeah
Joe Rogan'cause I've I've met a lot of trans people that like I had Blaire, White white on the podcast recently
I mean when you meet Blaire White you there's not a ******* doubt in your mind like this is someone who for whatever reason
The nature and genetics have given the wrong sex to a person that is distinctly female
Yeah, I mean as far as like the actual rules for like sports leagues, I I know, I'm sure you know way more about this than I do
But like I have a I know different like sports have handled it differently in terms of the requirements that like it's not necessarily an absolute thing like
You know trend, you know?
Trans women can or can't you know, compete?
Like sometimes you know there are like hormone requirements and stuff like that
You know that there are there are different ways of trying to
You know what the hormone requirements are?
Though no, no, I've I have, I have no
That's where it gets weird
Idea, right? That's the threshold
Old, for many sports it means handled differently in different places, but this guy named Derek
He's got a website called
It's a silly name or website
It's called more plates, more dates
It's like something you create a long time ago, but he's
I don't think he necessarily has a degree in chemistry in biochemistry, but he has a deep understanding of it and the way he was breaking down the amount of available testosterone that a biological female has like the threshold versus what's acceptable for a trans woman to compete
Against biological females, and it's substantially more like it's on the outskirts of like physiological normality
Yeah, I mean again, I don't
I don't know what like if there's a good compromise here that would like help like you know that would maintain a reasonable level of fairness
You know, without without you know, without just saying like you know, I think there are like legitimately a couple different
Yeah, I don't know what it is either
You know couple of different values that you have to balance to like try to figure that one out
I would say that I think like most contexts like you know, most of the things that trans people
You know who are like advocating for you?
Know more anti discrimination laws etc
Talking about are not going to be nearly as hard as like this kind of like edge case about you know about sports right?
Right, yeah no, I agree with that
Because you know 'cause like?
I think it's mostly like
Can you be like you know, like employment and housing and you know and and all of that stuff?
And and I think it is like I think it is important that you know that you have
You know that you do you have you know civil rights laws that you know that that cover everybody
Now I do think that because of some of the
Weird dynamics of this particular issue, right?
Like you know, you're going to get like things that are harder calls, right?
You know, like like this, like sports
Yeah and I I again I just like in terms of like what some sports league should require in terms of you know hormones or whatever
Like I have absolutely no idea, but again, I I think that it's
This is not like
In terms of things that I'm going to get like mad about, right?
You know, on a on a day to day basis, right?
Well you would if you had a daughter that was competing against that person
Yeah, maybe you know
Someone who had been training their whole life to be an elite swimmer in a dedicated massive amount of time and someone came around that had a a massive biological advantage
Yeah, although of course if I had a trans daughter you know then then I'd want to make sure that whatever the rules were, we're going to be fair to her too, which is why, like again, you know, like what the right sort of
Exactly where the rules should be set
Do you think if you had a trans daughter and your trans daughter competed as a male for many many years and was just sort of mediocre and then all of a sudden competed as a woman and started dominating?
Don't you think you'd feel a little bit of guilt?
I mean, I guess it depends how much like how much she was
You know, like how much we're talking about, right?
Like 'cause like I think in that in that swim meet case the the Upenn, the Upenn thing that you mentioned earlier
If I'm remembering right like and maybe you can correct me on this like like what I know about this is like
Scrolling through Twitter, you know, like you know what I saw
But like, I don't think that she even won by that much
Did she or did she?
Giant amount giant amount?
How much did she?
How much did she win by?
I thought it was
OK, let's find out she's breaking records
I mean, she's breaking records in in multiple meets
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean
Again, I mean, this is what The thing is like
There's a video of her literally lapping the other female swimmers
And this is again, this is when we're talking before one of the things we brought up is the Lakota culture has this term, and this term is called the heyoka, and the heyoka is the sacred clown
It's a part of their culture where someone makes fun of everything and it's like a sacred part of their culture
Where they subject everything to mockery and anything that can't stand up to mockery
Anything that like viciously defends itself against mockery
That's an illegitimate thing
Yeah, another thing that Lakota people had was
What their version of a transgender person was, and it was also a sacred part of their culture because it was a wise person that understood both genders and this person
Spirit or something?
You could come to and they had a deeper understanding of what it means to be a woman and what it means to be a man
Essentially were both
And so there they had a deep amount of respect for people who were trans in their culture and
I think that's a great way of approaching it that
Whenever you have these unique circumstances, someone who is biologically male but clearly is much more of a female, sometimes more of a female than a lot of biological females who are much more biologically female
You know much more oriented towards male thinking and male behavior
I mean this all of this
Is good for everybody
It's it's good for us to accept
And it's good for us to learn from these perspectives of these people that have very unique and and and different, but also common in terms of like when you have giant numbers of people like hundreds of millions of people, you have quite a few people that have these experiences and we can learn from them
And instead of
Discrimination, and I mean, I don't necessarily think sports is a discrimination, though that's where it gets weird, because like there's again, there's a reason why we make a distinction
Why males compete against males and females compete against females?
And I think we need to sort that out and
That, but you don't
You don't think like
Like, do you think that there is some sort of reasonable compromise to be arrived out there or what's?
Your position with physical sports
It's a problem because there's so many benefits to being a biological male
There's so many benefits the size of the lungs, the size of the heart, the physical strength, the fact that you're going through puberty, and that's the difference between someone who goes through puberty and maybe someone who doesn't
Right, the transition before that, yeah
Maybe someone would be right there
So and then there's the ethical dilemma about that
Like should you do that?
Because there's a great deal of people that have not done that and wound up becoming gay men
And so is that what it like
What's the right choice and who can make that choice?
And when do you have the ability to make that choice?
Should you be able to make that choice as a child?
Should you wait till you're an adult, you know we we we there's a lot of decisions that we don't allow people to make until they're of grown age
Like tattoos, you can't get your face tattooed when you're 4, but you can. When you're 24, you know it's it's it's
I mean, I'm not saying that they're the same thing, but what I am
Saying is that we
But it's so hard it's hard issue, right?
Faced with we're
Faced with many dilemmas that require discussions and
Comprehensive discussions and the only way you can do that is
Without censorship, well yeah
I mean, obviously I completely agree on that, I mean
I think that the
You know youth transition thing, you know
Again, I think that this is like this is a a little bit of a hard case because I think that
On the one hand, yeah, you're absolutely right
I mean, the idea, like you know, no sane person thinks that like little kids should have complete medical autonomy and just like get to like do whatever they want
That would be
Ridiculous, but at the same time like not getting a tattoo when you're a kid isn't going to like have some like really bad effect
You could just wave and that's fine
Whereas like with something like this
If that's not dealt with
We can only imagine
You know, yeah, exactly like I, I literally don't know, but it sounds like it
Neither of us know
But I I think that like then like having to go through what, from your perspective, is the wrong, is the wrong puberty, right?
I mean, like the stakes are higher that two thing right now
What does that mean in terms of like what level of medical gatekeeping there should be or like what the clinical practices should be?
I'm like the last person to to say, right?
Yeah, I'm the last person to say too. I just think it has to be something we can discuss. The problem is when people want to suppress people's ability to make choices, and when people want to suppress people's ability to discuss these things
I don't think that's good for any of us
I mean, these are very complicated human issues, and by human issues I put them in the same category as a lot of
Other things that are very messy
They're complicated to talk about their human issues, you know
And this is one of them
I mean, it's
It's certainly it certainly is
And I also think that again, it goes back to like one of the big points in the book, which is that I don't want
Like people who might be like if you've thought about one of these issues, we're talking about a lot, right?
Like and and you and you
You think like you have
And you might get very impatient right with people who who you think are, you know, are wrong about them
You think that they they have?
You know they haven't thought about it as much as you
Maybe then and you know you think that they're not like sensitive enough to like what people might need then
Like if you're just sort of writing somebody off, right?
You know that like they're done because because they're not like you know, they haven't evolved to exactly where you think they should evolve to yet
I think that that's bad on a human level
That's just a bad way to interact with people and, and I also think that it's I think it's bad politically because
You know somebody could like on some like incredibly messy, sensitive issue, right?
You know, like like they could
You know, like they could, they could land somewhere different from you on that, and I'm not saying that like there wasn't a bottom line like I think there is a bottom line, I think like nondiscrimination laws, stuff like that, right?
Like I think that's
Incredibly important, but I think that if you're writing people off based on that stuff when it could be that there are all these other things where you could actually get them on board with what you want
Right, and instead of saying, like
You know when you when you said in 2020 that you were probably going to vote for Bernie and there were people who?
There are people who freaked out about it and a lot of that was like bad faith
It was like ginned up by supporters of other candidates, but there were people who were like
You know real leftists who who were like mad that like Bernie that Bernie campaign like put out that like video where they were like you know clipping that
And that seemed crazy to me, right?
Like like Michael, Michael Brooks and I wrote an article for Jacobin about it at the at the time
And like like it
Just seems to me like you know, whatever like
The idea that instead of being like oh, hey, good like here are all these things we could agree on
We think ration of healthcare and you're willing to like support this
And by the way, like if you you know if you really care about you know trans people
I mean like I think you know, Bernie Sanders would probably your guy, right?
It made like that they use the, you know he wanted to fund, you know, transition costs
You know part of Medicare
For all you know, like that
That would be, that would be the most you know pro trans position
But like if you're going to say
Like you know somebody you know
Like if you think, oh Joe Rogan is wrong about like exactly how like sports
You know the sports issue should be and it should play out
So I don't care that there are all these other things right that he that he agrees with us about
I don't care if he's willing to support this thing, that would be incredibly beneficial
You know, like we just need to like cast him out, right?
Say like say like no, we just want nothing to do with you or maybe like once you agree with us on 100% of everything. And like you know, repent right? You know then maybe
Then maybe we'll have something to do with you
I think that that's I think that's a I think that's a stupid, and I think it's a self defeating way to like
Try to do politics and I I think it's I think it's also just a
Bad way to live your life
Well, I agree with you that writing people off because they don't share all of your opinions is ridiculous
And it's not the way you get people to
To take your position, it's the opposite. They're going to push back. They're going to push back, and you're going to reject people because they don't agree with 100% of your positions they're going to
They're going to dig their heels in
That's a natural thing with human beings
They're not going
To go woo Orguss will change
Now, that's not what they do man
They they ******* dig in
Yeah, nobody has ever said like you know, like nobody has ever been in like an argument on you know whatever Facebook where you know somebody you know like
Somebody says you know, somebody says that they're a terrible person and they're you know, whatever, they're, uh
You know they're a fascist or Stalinist or whatever it is they're being accused of being right, you know and said
Oh, you know?
What you're right, you're right
Good point, good point, good point right, you know like that now I get it right
Yeah yeah I did, yeah
You know, like that's that's not actually how you, how you appeal to you know to human beings at all
I mean, like anybody who knows like that's like that's something that like I think and
Alien within like 10 minutes of interacting with people would recognize is not going to work right
I mean like I think if you talk to people like their people like you
You know, like you're taking what they're saying seriously, like if you, if you think they're wrong, you can like
Try to explain why you think you think they're wrong and you can show them how the things that you want might actually help them
I mean, it's not always going to work
There's no guarantee 'cause that's just life
You know there's no guarantee, but I mean like
Sometimes it'll work and the other thing is just not
Going to work
So what positions did you take in your book that you got pushback from?
Oh boy so
Yeah, well there were
There were a few, although I will say most people who got mad at the book didn't read
It, like most people you know
Of course, why would they bother reading him when they could?
Just get mad, yeah?
I mean there
Were like, you know
What if I read it clouds my judgement, because now I agree with you on some things
I'm trying to say **** you
Yeah, exactly like there were
There were so many like the number of people who got mad about the book before it came out
Just based on the title or the description about this
Wanna have another drink before you talk?
Yeah, absolutely yeah yeah please
You're out, you're out of booze
Might need a refill
This is really good
Thank you Buffalo
Yeah, it's good stuff
So yeah, the number of people who got mad about it before it came out versus the number after I think is really revealing, but but
I mean it
It's literally true, but I think the people, the people who did read it who got mad which is not
Most people who read it, but the people who did read it who got mad
I think there were a few things. One of them was about the the Andino incident from 2019. You remember this
Gianti for thing when they milkshakes at him and stuff
Yeah through Yep Yep that they
That, and in general the part of it where I was criticizing
You know, Antifa, that they that like I think that they
I think there are a lot of people you know who at least maybe not a lot of people in the world as a whole, but a lot of people within a certain kind of subculture who have
You know, convince themselves that that, like I don't know, it's really important that people be using these kinds of like
You know St tactics to like because they think in their heads that it's always like Germany in 1933 and like you know Nazis are about to take over or something which is delusional
But they you know I, I think if you you know one of the points that I make about that in the book is that if you think about like what was actually going on in, you know Germany in the early 30s
When you had
You know, like Nazis who are like going around and like smashing up like trade union halls and like you know and and and fighting with people and like socialist and communist parties and stuff
Why would any, like you know?
Would corporate America have to bother with any of that now, right?
They're already winning, you know, just fine
You know, without it, right?
Like so, OK, so sorry, let me sorry, let me
I don't know what you're
Saying I'm not confused
Let me back up like try to be clear about this
So I think the idea that fascism is what's like on the horizon
In America, I don't think makes sense'cause I think that arose under very different circumstances than the than than what we've we've got right now
I think that the rule
That, like the things that the things that fascists were doing in like Germany before they took over there or Italy before they took over, there were in response to the perception that the system was under threat and there would be like
Maybe even like communist revolution, and this was like the only thing that you know
The only thing that like
You know, the wealthy elites could kind of turn to to to stop that from happening
You know would would be like allying with with the with, you know, the German entry business interests allied with Hitler
And that's just such a radically different situation than the United States
Now that I think the idea that you'd be obsessed with, like
Street fighting with you know with like the few people who like you, know the Richard Spencer types or whatever
Just seems I, I think that's I think that makes no sense
I think that it's it's a
I think it's a diversion
I mean, I think it's a distraction, honestly
You know from things that actually matter more, and I think that it's really dangerous when people would make excuses for
And behavior like attacking and you know, because it's
Because if you think about that, like the things that here's the thing that most disturbed me right when that happened that I would see people who would be defending that
Online, who would say, well, you know he's not like really a journalist you know, because like whatever they would say about him, right?
You know he's like a propagandist or he's like really siding with like the proud boys or one of these groups
Or you know whatever
And it's like the misinformation thing, right?
Like who gets to decide, right?
What counts as a journalist?
And I certainly don't want that decision to be made by like individual vigilantes
Right, you know?
Well, the problem with Antifa is the name
Calling it Antifa, like anti fascist like you're
Like, well of
Course or some anti fascist?
Yeah, right, right?
Who wouldn't be?
That's the problem
It's but like let's define fascism
Put put up the definition of fascism and this is part of where the problem lies
Like when we discuss fascism, whether we're discussing the connection between the corporate interests and the government or like
What is the?
What is the technical definition of what a fascist is so like?
Where where would you press Wikipedia?Unknown
Just Google it
OK yeah, here fascism, a form of far right authoritarianism
Ultra nationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy that rose to prominence in the early 20th century of Europe
There's other definitions of that though
That's the Wikipedia definition
Wikipedia is sometimes it gets ideologically captured
A political philosophy, movement or regime
That exalts nation and often race above the individual, and stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader
Severe economic and social regimentation and forcible suppression of opposition
I don't see that in our country
Here's the other one, though a tendency towards
Or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
The problem with that is when you're trying to
Control by violence and St action and throwing milkshakes at people you're trying to control
The way they behave, and they think
And that's a form of fascism
It's a kind of fascism which you're doing is
In a sense, you're intimidating people into not opposing your perspective
You have large groups of people, they incite violence
They lit the ******* apartment building of the the Portland Mayor, Portland
One of the great things about is it's the least fascist place on Earth
It is literallyUnknown
The most open minded progressive city on the entire continent, theUnknown
United, you know?
You don't think Nazis are about to
Take over Portland, there's
Not a ******* chance and yet that's the stronghold of Antifa, and that's the place where they find the most fascism
They have to combat against
It's a form of bullying
It's a form of gangs
It's a they're trying to enforce their ideology, and unfortunately, they're ******* mayor
Has let them go so far with it that even he's pushing back now he's calling for greater police protection and they're they're trying to enforce laws now and arrest people
And because he was being targeted so much that he turned it around and is like we have to do something about these people like now you
Think now you think like it's
It's like a gang man
It's like they they get they're they're into this ideology and they're into this whole community of like stopping these fascists and they're looking for them when they don't even exist
The technical definition of fascism is not running rampant in ******* Portland
It's just not no
No it's not
And I think that like if you want to say like there are like far right groups who might commit hate crimes etc, then like first of all I actually don't think that a lot of people who do stuff like this would be like just
I'm I'm skeptical that like they're really going to be the ones who are who are going to, you know, do something there
But like if
Do something there in what way?
Oh that like that like that like if you have like actual fascists who are like showing up with guns, right?
You know that like you know, yeah, I mean like what like I don't think
They're gonna run out of dodge
I don't think most people who sign up for stuff like this
This is a point Michael Brooks made to me like after the
In Michigan in 2020 there were there was, uh, like some protests at the state Capitol over lockdown stuff where like lots and lots of people actually had guns there he was, like, oh, where's where's Antifa? Here, right? You know, like like?
You know why not, right and?
Is that when they were trying to kidnap the governor?
That's the FBI red LED operation
Yeah, that was that was before that, but that was that was like that
Was related, yeah, it was the same kind of stuff, so I mean like the protests were like real the the governor plot
Same kind of stuff
Seems like that was just the like equivalent for this stuff and like
It was ginned up by the
Yeah it was. It was like one of those. It was like one of those cases, like with the Post 911 security state where you have some like
You know mentally ill Muslim loner who like the FBI spends like 2 years convincing them you know to join their fake fake fake terror plot
You need to blow your
They finally say yes and they arrest them
You know, like like it seems like way too close to that for comfort
But I guess I guess the thing that's
That might connect to something we were talking about earlier about Antifa
I think that the reason one reason why people end up like obsessing with like about like marginal far right groups like they they proud boys are not about to like
You know March on Washington and like you know and and install, you know whoever is
Well, the also that guy the ******* head of the proud boys was in the FBI too
That was the craziest thing when, when that turned out there was the one guy who was
What was his name Enrique?
Something or another?
Who turned out to be an FBI informant that he was the the head of the proud boys, that they were always interviewing him on television after Gavin McInnes, who started as a LARP, he started literally as a joke like it was
Yeah, it's like yeah, it's like, uh?
It was based on a Broadway musical
That's why they called it proud boys
They were joking around
And then it became a thing and then a bunch of people
Once you created an organization, then a bunch of people can join in
Then they infiltrate it and then they decide to radicalize it
Yeah, proud boys leader Enrique Tarrio was an FBI informant
Like what in the **** man?
Yeah, it's like and they turn the McCarthy period when like half of the people at like some like little local Communist Party meeting would be FBI agents because they were devoting so many resources to like trying to
To stop this, like very marginal, you know this very marginal group you
Know so people were upset at you because of the Endino thing that you didn't think that was I mean
People, people were up
And obviously it's just not a way to treat a
Person like no no it's
Beat him up and and he's the if you ever met Andy
He's just tiny Asian gay man
Right, yeah, right
The idea that this guy is this jackbooted thug that's there to take down, you know, democracy is ******* preposterous
No, no, it is
And and I think that the
And I think that like the problem is like when you make an obvious point like, hey, there's absolutely no justification for like physically attacking this guy
You know that they that like
That that's that's that's insane behavior that, like this, is
This serves no good purpose
You know whatsoever that like a lot of the things that people said about at the time when they're trying to justify it were, you know, turned out to be ******** Which is also true that
Also, you know and also, by the way, I don't want to set the precedent that like we're going to have St violence where people who like you know somebody, decides they don't count as a real journalist and and that they're like helping bad people or creating dangerous effects or something
And they could just attack them like I mean
Why you know?
I mean, I'm sure of you know
I'm sure I've written lots of stuff for Jacobin that
People would say that about right, but what is it like like?
Journalist, this is the other thing, like what defines a journalist like?
How do you decide who is and isn't a giant?
Do you have to be connected to a specific organization?
Because there are many people that are connected to specific organizations that are propagandist
Do you have to have a degree in journalist journalism?'cause there's many people?
That have a degree in journalism that are liars
And they work for gigantic corporations and they spew out all the nonsense that this corporation wants them to say
Like what is a journalist?
Should rigid criteria for what is I mean?
Couldn't you not be a person who believes in the truth?
Who decides to dedicate yourself to discussing things and researching things and doing it in a very honest and like?
Doing it as a person in good faith and putting out the information as you've discovered it, like isn't that journalism like who decides who's a journalist?
Yeah, I mean certainly nobody at Wiki leaks had a journalism degree, and I'm really glad that that exists, right, sure
How about Edward Snowden?
Does that was what he did?
Does that count as journalism?
Yeah, I've heard people say that Glenn Greenwald is not a journalist like
Which is which is ridiculous
I mean he broke, I mean
You know he like whatever you think about Glenn or his politics or any of that stuff
I mean, just from a journalism perspective like first with the the NSA revelations and then again in Brazil
You know with you know with the material that like helped free the former president, you know who's who was, who was unjustly imprisoned
Like that that's, I mean that's the most important stuff
Journalism can do, right?
So if that's not journalism, you know
If that's not journalism, right?
Like I don't know why journalism is is important
But yeah, what is journalism?
Once you go to stub stack, you're not a
Journalist anymore yeah
And and I think that the and I think that's incredibly dangerous because you could imagine
I mean look, you don't have to imagine you could just look at what actually has happened with Julian Assange, right?
That they that like that, you know, like the the government says, like you know that, oh, there's no freedom of the press issue here'cause that's not really journalism
He's just like some kind of you know enabler of terrorism
You know, because he, he did this
That's certainly not a road that I want to go down
But the problem is you as obvious as so many of these points are that like
It's there's absolutely no good justification for physically attacking a non combatant you know, like somebody who isn't like going and you know, like
Right and mocking and laughing when you hit him in the head with a ******* milkshake like what it was that
No, it's you know, it's terrible behavior
You so like you make that obvious point
You make the point
We're just making about journalism and it's
It's like on the face of it
You think, OK, this is like this is all obvious, but the problem is it's that like
Team, like rooting for your team, behavior that like
You're willing to accept horrible behavior as long as it's enforcing your ideology
Yeah, and then if and then if somebody like me said, you know, says that, I think that you know, like you know that that I think this is bad then
Oh see so you're not being loyal to the team, right?
Like you're siding with Andy, know who's on the other team and you know you're you're siding against people who are, you know
Or on your team you know
So like they'll just have a reaction to that
That's not actually about like the thing itself, or like showing what's wrong with the argument
Yeah, and I should be really clear I'm
Not like I had Andino on my podcast and I was skeptical of a lot of things
He was saying one of them that he had traumatic brain injury
From that I was like what kind of brain injury do you have from that?
Like what are you talking about now?
Yeah, I know originally they like there was these reports that there was like concrete
There was like mixed the milkshakes somehow and that just sounds like
No listen man, I watched him get hit with that
That's like that's not what gives you brain damage
Yeah, it's it's
I know what gives
You brain damage
You gotta get you gotta get hit like if that guy got hit with a ******* piece of concrete he would go down
OK, he's not gonna take it on the chin and keep walking and get a traumatic brain
Injury from a milkshake
Yeah, it's silly, no
And look and I think that
There were some other shots that he took that
Weren't on camera
And I think I think Andy know like as somebody like the issue is not do I like Andy?'cause I actually don't right?
I mean like I think don't you like so?
He wrote an article
That was, I think it was for quelette
I'm not sure about that part, right?
Might have been somewhere else, but he wrote an article about visiting Britain where he was claiming basically that there were, like, you know, parts of London that were like under Sharia law, or that you know like it, and his evidence was that
Was that there were like no drinking signs that like it's it's been pointed out that like other like non Muslim neighborhoods they have the same things, right?'cause you're just not allowed to drink in certain places
You know, under generally applicable laws, I think that he's you know and and I think that I think that probably in general, right like that
He's a provocateur
Yeah, I think I think he's a
I think he's a provocateur and I think that he's
I I too have a lot of questions you know about about
The honesty, or at least the commitment to sort of checking things you know before you before you go into print with them and and my sense is that you know his his politics are completely different from mine
But none of that matters for this right?
Like none of that is the point, right?
I don't want just like you know, if we're talking about like
You know, should we have a taboo against like physically assaulting journalists, you know
Yeah, physically assaulting people you disagree
With you know then like, yeah we should and it should be anybody, right you know
But like also, I think that you know it shouldn't depend on whether you think they're honest
It shouldn't depend on any of that stuff, right?
You know that that's that
That should is not something that should be happening, and I think it's a bad door to
I think it's a bad door to open up
And but I you know, I think that that's something in the book that people a lot of people
I shouldn't say a lot of people, most people who got mad at it never cracked it open
But like you know, but like it's a lot of some of the people who did get mad at it, you know, because they read it had a problem with that
I think some of the Dave Chappelle stuff in the first chapter because, you know, they thought I was like defending a transphobe
You know, like I think that that was
You know that that was an issue with some people
You know trying to you know, I think that this stuff in later in the you know in the book
That just in general, I think a lot of people who got mad about it sort of misinterpreted the sort of main claim in a crazy way, right?
That, like you know, in other words that they thought that the main thing that I was saying
Was that like online?
Cancellation is like the the most important part of problem in the world
Or you know something like that
And that's not what I think
You know what I think is that this is not a way that you should act towards people one because on a human level it's just a toxic way to to operate
And two, if you actually want to win people over to ideas that you think are important so you can accomplish something that's important in the real world
Then getting bogged down in all of this kind of, you know, online **** throw in and you know trying to get people fired and all of that stuff for all the reasons that we're talking about, I think it's the I think it's like the worst, most counterproductive thing you could
Do I think there's also a real issue with communicating through social media?
It's such a
It's a way of communicating that takes away so much of what it is to be a human to be a human is to look at a person to have a conversation with them, look them in the eyes, to talk about things in depth, to recognize their perspective
Allow them to talk so you give them
There's a a sense of camaraderie your your
Two human beings expressing ideas
With social media, you're just printing something out and you're throwing it out into the ether
Yeah, of course
And then the other person responds
And then you don't see each other
You don't like trying to be biting and nasty, and you don't
The way you win is through vitriol
It's a ****** way to communicate and one of the best ways to get attention is to be the biggest CTT like
That's that's how people get attention online
To say the most mean the most
Vicious thing that you can and it's like a fun little game
Yeah yeah, and you get
Totally and you get validation for being like the first person to like throw
You know throwing the first stone right like the
And people like support you because they wish they had said it or they don't want to be the person to stick their neck out, but they'll
Like it because the
Yeah, go get him
Yeah, or get him Ben
Yeah, or they just don't like or or
They just like you know they like the tweet, right?
You know that like we got that guy and then they just never think about it again or sometimes like if they thought about it in the 1st place like like I gave
You know there's a
There's a guy who I am
You know who this is
OK, so Wendell Potter used to be a health insurance executive and he would like lobby
You know Congress, on behalf of health insurance companies and then at some point in the past, like I think like maybe 15 years ago or something, I'm not sure about the timing
He he decided, you know, like he had a crisis of conscience about doing that and he he he left the industry and he he you know he
He started like what he's done since then
Is he just campaigns for Medicare for all right?
So this is this is a
This is a really good person and
Uh, I remember back in with this. This was like spring 2021. Maybe Wendell Potter tweeted out something like the fact that people don't understand how much Medicare for all would help us even during this time when people were losing on health insurance. You know, because of
You know the economic disruptions
All this stuff shows
How many people bought the lies that I used to tell, you know, when I was a health insurance executive and this guy who I'm not going to name 'cause I don't want to like, you know, shame, this guy
That's not the point, right?
You know, but like is
This guy quote tweeted that right? Like he just probably saw it on his feet and you know, he didn't really know him from he quote tweeted it and said, and I quote, Oh my God, this ******* ***** ** **** actually admitted it and that got like 20,000 likes before enough people like told him who Wendell Potter was that he finally like took down the tweet and what gets me about that example
If whoever if the guy who originally tweeted that had literally just clicked on Wendell Potter's name on the top of the tweet, that would have taken him to their pro, you know his profile picture, where he would have seen like all these, you know, like names that like have like for Medicare, for all the title, and he would have realized, like what point he was making when he tweeted that
But why would you do 5 seconds of research about somebody before denouncing them when you can get that little endorphin rush from, like, you know?
You're a ***** ** **** on Twitter or then you could get all those likes and RT tweets
Do you know who Alan Levin events is that he's a writer?
He's got a very interesting perspective on this and he calls
Twitter and social media processed information the same way processed food is bad for you that processed information ultra processed where it's down to instead of a conversation with someone, it's down to quote tweeting a thing completely out of context and trying to rule with them
Oh my God, this ***** ** **** just admitted it like that kind
Of thing that's an example of like
Cultural process information and when he said that it was like one of those aahe movement moments where it's like that's what it is
That is the thing that separates human beings and normal human interaction between social media interaction
It's too easy to do, it's too simple
It's like basically like fast food or like some sort of
Process ******* snack
It's terrible for you
It's terrible for your brain
And people engage in it easily
Yeah, and much like those other examples, the profit incentives of the companies that run it you know, are
All in favor of people doing all this stuff, because the more people are doing that, the more the more minutes per day their eyeballs are on Twitter, sure, but I think you know
Almost a simplistic version of because I don't think they meant that
I don't think they created it in order to get people to do it that way
I think they created it like when you go back and look at Twitter what it initially was
It was like you had put at and then your name is like is going to the movies
Like you would even talk about yourself in the third person you know, like at Joe Rogan's going to the gym like that's how people did it and then slowly but surely it became a way where people espoused opinions and then it became Arab Spring
And then, like it became all sorts of different ways that people express themselves
They like this idea that it started out with this insidious notion
I I don't
I don't think it necessarily started out with an insidious notion, but I do think that the ways that it's changed over time are ones that like just just the fact that like that, like you know, likes and retweets and all that stuff are are part of it, I do think
It's a kind of feedback mechanism
Like you know, Jon Jon Ronson book, so you've been publicly shamed
Yeah, like he talks about that at the end
He uses the analogy of
Those, like electronic speeding signs that will show you as you like, drive by like what the you know how fast you're driving and you know what the and what the speed limit is and he points out that on paper there's no reason that should work because they're not giving you any information you don't already have, right every car has a speedometer in it that like tells you you know how fast you're driving a normal low tech speed sign would tell you what the speed limit is
But just that moment of validation that you get from driving past and see the two numbers come together actually does seem to get people to drive more slowly and it reduces accidents
Tons of studies about this that show that it does that
And in that case it's that kind of like immediate feedback loop of validation is a good thing, but in social media that kind of immediate feedback loop of validation that, like you're going to get, you know 10,000 people who you know like and retweet you know, because you said you know you said somebody is a ***** ** **** or you know whatever is is incredibly toxic. I think it it makes it
Harder for you know, harder to communicate with people
It makes it harder to even listen to what somebody who disagrees with you
Thanks for long enough that you could think about how to convince them
You know that to try to persuade them of your point of view and it makes us even more atomized than than we are already, right?
You know, like if you spend
You know, if you spend all of your time scrolling, which again, maybe it wasn't the original intention, but I think that like the more time people spend scrolling through their social media feeds, right?
You know the better it is for the bottom line of these companies when you agree with that
Oh for sure
Yeah, and it's
Also hugely addictive with the likes and the retweets and all that stuff
They just made things incredibly addictive and the numbers when people look at numbers they want to look at how many likes they get for something and then when they find certain things they get more likes
They gravitate towards those things you see in the
Social dilemma documentary
I actually haven't seen it, but I I
Know what it is
It's really good
It's really good, and it it, it highlights a terrifying future because they're essentially saying like this leads to like this massive polarization of these perspectives in this country
And it's like it's, like, almost like setting us up for
A civil war
Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's going to be a civil war, but I do think that I
I do think that you're going to get a lot of more people who get all of their sort of
Emotional connection to politics is about like getting mad at people who are on the other team and not even getting mad
At people with power
Who are who are on the other team?
But just like getting mad at whoever right like like like the way that after the 2016 election, something that
I felt like I hadn't seen before was the amount of time that people were spending talking about
You know Trump voters just like ordinary people who voted for Trump
That seems crazy to me because I mean especially after 2020. You know, we're like the, you know the turn out was ridiculously high in both, both both sides
So like you've got like 70 however, million people that you're just going to like write off, right?
Like they're just like unredeemable, you know like that they're they're
Of deplorables, yeah, they're just
They're just irredeemable deplorables like I don't know how you think that you're going to accomplish anything right?
Like like if you if
They're not thinking like that, though, and that they're not thinking in this like broad perspective
They're not like looking at like what's best for the human race
What's best for the community of the United States or my city or my my country?
No, they're not thinking like that
I'm just thinking like what feels good
What feels good is like **** you Trump supporter
Yeah, no, exactly like, not like
Look, I mean one of the, you know, like one of the reasons I always thought that Bernie Sanders would have won the 2016 election if he'd been the nominee. Is that there are?
I'm not saying all of them, I'm not even saying most of them, but I think there's a chunk of people who voted for Trump in two1016 who absolutely?
Would have voted for Bernie I think so too
Yeah, I I don't have any doubt in my mind
I think there's a lot of people who want a person that has like a legitimate like a really well thought out perspective that they have been consistent with their entire career
That's Bernie Sanders like, and he really does look out for the working person
It really does look out for working families
And if you go back and like see clips from him from like the 1980s, right? It's all the same stuff. So this
Yeah all the same **** so this why why comedians like what about comedians that made you?
Yeah, so I mean, I think that's an example of a larger thing, but I think it's a really interesting example, right?
So I think the larger thing that it's an example of is that when people, this is my claim about why a lot of people on the left get sucked into this, right?
You know, when people feel like they have no real power to
It changed anything like big and structural that actually matters
They they get sucked into picking fights that they think they can't win, right?
If you can't win what the ones that matter, right?
You know like like, then find a way to care about you
Know the stuff that is not going to change
Change the world for better but you know, but you derive some kind of satisfaction from so if it's like
You know, yelling at Dave Chappelle, you know then like, that's that's something that that's something that can can scratch that itch
You know, if it's if it's Antifa, right?
Like look the things that actually create like misery for working people in the United States
Or big structural things that can't be solved by punching anybody in the face, right?
You know that that that's not going to
That's not going to work
But you know, you can get diverted to to, you know, to finding someone finding someone you know you can punch and you know you get like that sense of of satisfaction
And I think that I think that what the comedy example really shows is the way that people get sucked into this way of viewing the world
That's all about individual moralism, right?
Is this person a good person or a bad person?
Is that person a good person or a bad person and it becomes just this like constant?
Inventory at the soul
And I think that we're doing that so much that we almost don't even notice that we're doing it
It's just almost like goes without saying that like that's how you would interact with this stuff
And so I think that
Comedy, you know as a form of entertainment and when it's really good as a form of art you know as as something that can
You know help us kind of look at, you know, look at the world around us and it's slightly different angle
You know than than we would in the normal course of things
You know, 'cause it kind of holds things up in a, you know, in a different way
I think that that can only work if it's operating in a space where people aren't constantly thinking about like oh, is this, you know?
Is this guy a good guy or a bad guy?
Is is this?
Is this joke that I'm about to tell, you know, like something that is is morally?
Acceptable or not right?
You know, like like if you're in that space, I don't think you're going to be able
To, I don't think you're going to be able
To to do it right?
That's an interesting thought that people will attack things that they think that they can have an impact on
Instead of going after these big impossible problems that seem insurmountable
Yeah, I mean look perfect example. Think about the summer of 2020 after the murder of George Floyd there was this
Wave of protests and riots and unrest that was like without precedent in a very, very long time if ever right and
All of that was originally about police violence, but how much has actually changed in terms of how policing works in the United States since then, there were some cities that cut budgets for a while most of
Them have put it back, they you know, but in terms of things like how?
Easy, it is to hold a police officer accountable, you know if
If they you know if they use violence in unjustified way, I don't think that's I don't think that's gotten much, much better
Well, it's changed in New York City in New York City police officers can be civilly liable now
Yeah, and that's a good step, you know
I think that I think that I don't think it's a complete solution because for one thing I think a lot of people who are most likely to end up in these situations
Are not into good position to afford you know good civil right?
You know good legal representation
I know sometimes in a high profile case he'll get people doing IT pro bono
You know who are good lawyers, but you know, I again, I think it's a good step
I don't think it
I don't think it addresses
Most of the problem, but I think it's it's something that support for sure, but here's the thing
I think that much more than people like you know, actually changing how policing works in America is really heavy lift
But what's really easy is you know getting you know every you know corporation in the world to like
Put out some sort of Black Lives Matter thing right?
Like that's that's easy'cause it doesn't cost them anything like why?
Wouldn't they just do that?
It's also good for business
Yeah yeah yeah
You know, I
Mean that's the thing like this woke signaling that you know that your business is a part of the good side and that you should support this business
Yeah, no, absolutely it again like it, it doesn't
You know, like like it earns them some goodwill
It doesn't cost them anything
Why wouldn't they do that right like that?
Doesn't that does very little to solve
Like anything that any of this stuff is supposed to be about
But but again, it's it's it's easy, right?
Or like when you know people like knocking down statues which don't get me wrong, I don't think there should be statues of Confederate generals
You know, in in, in cities you know?
I mean, I don't think that's something we should glorify, but I also saw a lot of like after the really bad statues came down
People started going after Gray area statues and
You know it's
George Washington statues
What's interesting about the civil war
The civil War statues is, many of them actually came up
They were put up during the civil rights demonstrations of the 1960s, and they're really cheaply made. These like ****** responses to the change that was happening in the country
Yeah, right, so again, I think that like
Should you have like?
Should there be a statue?
Strawberry Lee, Robert E
Lee no, I don't think so
But I also think it's revealing that people end up getting
Spending this much time on these purely symbolic things, right?
You know, like we've got rid of all of the really objectionable statues, and now we'll say, well, how about George Washington?
How about you over right and then you you search for things that you know you can change the name of it, right?
You know, like my, you know, my mom has gone really into to bird watching in her retirement and she told me that there's like some kind of warbler that's named after a Confederate general
And people are like trying to
Like get that changed
It's like OK, you're really like, you know
But digging deep
They're digging deep, right?
Right, so you know
This is kind
Of weird though, you know like if
You have like a Hitler warbler like******* weed celebrating
Like yeah no and like whatever I mean
I guess if T shirt is that sure I
Guess if I if I were in the
He had a warbler with a ******* wing up in the air like a Nazi like
Saying yeah but but again, why did you?
Why comedians in the title and like?
Yeah, yeah so so I think that I think 'cause I think it's an example that makes it really dramatic because
Comedians don't and really can't exercise political power
They might, you know, influence to a certain extent
The way that people think about certain things, but
Uh, nobody is. You know, nobody who's who's doing comedy is is making decisions. You know that that directly directly impact people's lives so
So if you were actually trying to to do that, you know, like if you're actually trying to affect real change
This doesn't make any sense
What I think it is is it's a symptom of how extreme this kind of moralistic approach to politics
Can get right that like you're this concerned with like constantly, you know testing, you know whether somebody is a is a good person or a bad person or they ever said anything that you know that might show them to like to really be a bad person and nothing could ever just be a bad moment, right?
That you know that that it has to be like this is the moment where you really revealed
The you know how toxic your soul was or something you know rather than just like you said something stupid because sometimes people say things that are stupid
You know that, like I think that that kind of moralism, when it's applied to comedy?
I think that that's I think that that's like maybe the most extreme symptom of of what I'm talking about
Because it's one thing even to get mad at somebody because
Of something they wrote, like in an editorial, right?
That they're they're telling you like exactly what they think should happen
You know that, like if I
You know, if I write, you know, if I write something for Jacobin and you know some people get upset about that, OK, at least its Jacobin article
I'm literally saying exactly what I think, right?
If you're doing, you know a account like so so that last Dave Dave Chappelle, special at Netflix, you know that that people people got mad about
And which, by the way, I, I, you know, hadn't even watched
But since I had written this thing, you know people kept asking me what I thought, and I finally watched it
And I thought that the way that it was portrayed as if it were this like just festival of transphobic, you know hatred was ridiculous, that in fact
The overall theme of the special as far as those issues go was about him, like moving towards a place of greater understanding and you know
And and like and it's also kind of a love letter to his friend that committed suicide for supporting him was attacked for supporting him
And then she jumped off a ******* building and committed suicide
This is like
In an homage to this person's life as long part of like I worked with Dave during the entire time he was piercing that together because we started doing shows in Austin like
November of 2020. I mean, it might have even been earlier than that and we were working together while he was putting it together
And he was responding to this idea that he was transphobic and he was saying like this is so crazy like this is who I am and this is about this person
Who when I was accused of being transphobic, this person defended me and was dragged by people and there's been some talk of whether or not like how much of that was creative license because like people have tried to find like what the tweets were like, how many of them were DMS like?
We don't know
I mean I don't think you could dismiss that or how many of them
Or people who actually knew her personally but then committed suicide and like this is like trying to make it's the highest form of comedy in a lot of ways, because you're trying to take this like socially sensitive issue and extract laughs from it, which is very difficult to do
But in no way was it transphobic
In no way was it hurtful or cruel or or mean well
I mean, I mean actually, he's like he spent a couple minutes of the special explaining why the bathroom was in North Carolina were cruel and like
At the end, like when he's talking about his dead friend, like one of the crucial moments comes when he's describing there like back and forth
You know, when he he had her open for him and and
Yeah, which is a hilarious thing
But there is this like really moving part of it right at the at the end where you know he you know she
She tells him you know like
I want you to recognize that I'm going through a real human experience and like and and like
It really sinks in and that, and the idea that watching this would make somebody more transphobic just just seems absurd to me, but what people did right is they literally quoted individual sentences that he says in it
Like like there's one point in the special where he says
I'm a turf right turf standing for transitioning, you know?
Team turf, yeah
Joke yeah, it's like OK, but
Literally within like 2 minutes of him saying I'm on team turf
He says I'm not saying that I don't think transwomen are women
It's like, well, hold on right
Like you know, if if you take both of those literally right, those those two, those two don't go together, but of course, that's not how comedy works
That's like thinking that like somebody who writes a novel
That, like every sentence of the novel, is like what they actually personally think is is is true, but
Of course, of course, yeah
I, I think, and I've got to think, that a lot of people who write articles like this
Must understand that on some level, right that they that like this is not how comedy works, but I think that
You know, sometimes it's like bad faith, they're you know they're just being dishonest
They're definitely some of that
Also, I think that
Like sometimes if you get this invested in like
Making these, like moral indictments of people over those cultural war battles, then you're just not even pausing to think about that like you're just like trying to find evidence like you're just like like sifting through it to like
Find like it's like you know Freddie Deboer, the commentator
OK, so Freddie Deboer is a is a writer
He wrote a really good book about the education system called Call to smart
And he has this essay from a few years ago called Planet of Cops, where he says that it seems to him that like increasingly everybody you know in the culture is is a is a cop now, right?
What he means by that?
And you know he develops the metaphor
He says things like
You know, oh, there's the new movie that people getting excited about you know? Well, give me, you know, give Me 2 hours and 500 words and I'll find your indictments right
You know that it's it's like it's sort of constantly sifting through things like find evidence that people who have committed some kind of sin or or or infraction
And and I think that like that's how people are approaching that like when they wrote these articles you know about, you know how, Oh my God, you know, the Dave Chappelle said that he was on team Turf
You know that special like look there?
There's a mission, right?
You know you gotta, you gotta get those indictments right
So you just have to sort through all of it until you can find something that you know that looks like a a smoking gun of of evidence and, and I think that it's like it's a
Obviously it's a terrible way to write about
Anything but I think what what's interesting to me about the example of comedy
Is that it's sort of the most absurd possible application of of doing that, because I mean just just to be like simplistic about it for a second, right?
Like if you're saying something in standup special, like generally speaking, not every sentence, but like you're saying it because you think it's funny, right?
But that's which is just a different thing from saying something 'cause like oh, you know, here is exactly what I think, right?
It's like the example that we were talking about before the podcast, which I'm I'm not gonna do 'cause it's actually in my act now that someone put a quote that I said in an article
Oh yeah, yeah
About what a ***** ** **** I and I'm like
Hey you gotta put the whole quote because there's like a lot more to that and it's clearly joking, but it's that thing that they do is also because someone is getting a disproportionate and exorbitant amount of attention
And when someone is like a Dave Chappelle
Or myself, who's got a disproportionate amount of attention?
There's so many people that want to look at that and go flaws
Holes peppered keg throw rocks like and it's a normal thing to have this sort of reaction to someone who you feel
Either their take on things isn't valid, or it's not
This it doesn't align with your own, or there's a reason why your moral morally superior to them, because your position is better
You know, yeah, no, I I think there
I think there's a lot of that, you know, and and it's also, I mean it
Kind of goes back to where saying earlier
The you know, BLM protests in the aftermath and all that stuff like if you get somebody like if I mean obviously in a case it's high profile is like Dave Chappelle like Netflix isn't going to dump him because like why would they do that?
Like that would just be putting
Like a lot of money on the on the table
Well, not only that, but there's no reason to write
Here's the thing
It's like if Dave Chappelle was saying all trans people who would die should
Sure, and we they're not human
OK, yeah, get rid of them
Everybody would agree to that like you shouldn't put that on your network, but you cannot look at any of the things that he said and rationalize any of these accusations that people have towards him
He is not that guy, he's a lovely guy
If you meet him, he's one of the kindest
Nicest, sweetest guys
That's who he really is and it's really striking too, because if you remember when all this was going on there was like a week of the news that was all about how there's going to be this huge walkout of trans employees at Netflix remember this?
Yeah, they took a like a
Lunch break it was like 5
Of them, yeah there were like 5 people at it's not even clear that they
All worked at Netflix
Most of them didn't, and then the one of them that was there
They found a whole bunch of racist **** that she had put on Twitter, and they're like
Hey and then not even jokes
Just like racist stuff, it's like
Goddamnit, I I get what's going onUnknown
These are like they're humans, humans
Flawed and you know just because they said a thing that was incorrect doesn't mean that their whatever position they have
They can't have a good perspective on something
Yeah, and what and what kills me about that example is at that very moment that that was going on right that there was this like
Super hyped up, you know, walkout that like got all this attention
There was like, you know, two people on their lunch break or whatever, like at the same time there was the John Deere strike going on and that was that was, you know, thousands of people you know, we're we're, we're out on strike for to, you know, to get better, you know wages and working conditions
John Deere the tractors
Yeah Yep, Yep the the workers
I heard that
Yeah yeah if you go if you go back, yeah
I believe you, but I mean I've never heard a peep out of that
Yeah, well, that's the thing, right?
So like you compare the scale of the two things and then you compare the scale of the coverage
Right, one of them is jokes, but it's also jokes from the greatest living comedian that's part of the problem
It's like you and also a a guy who you you sort of associate with left wing values and progressive values and you want them to fall in line
And I think that's part of the blowback
Is that you know they they they want to shame him
Into falling in line with their ideals and one of the things that he said, like when he we talked about the special and this is we did a show together and he did this speech at an arena and he's like like I am not going to comply with the way you, you know, want me to think and want me to behave
That's not what I'm doing
Yeah, and and again like what's his response going to be realistically like?
He's he's just going to like
Joe Rogan**** that's what he's gonna do, right?
It's gonna be funnier and funnier
You know, but like he like the idea that like saying like he's a terrible person, he's a transphobe like is going to get him to like see things more from your perspective
In fact he talks about this in the special right that like he
You know he has the thing about the woman who like followed him out to the parking lot or whatever to you know to to give him a hard time
And the point is that, like all of that, like his reaction was just **** you, right?
You know, like, of course, it is right, you know
But like then like actually meeting this trans woman and like having this, you know, like like you
Know like you
Know having the interactions that they had and like having that mean something to him, right?
Like that that
Like that did way more probably to get him to see things the way that people were yelling at him
Wanted him to see them
Then like people, just like saying you know that like 'cause if if you say like if somebody wants to like shut you down or silence you, or like berate you until you you know you stop thinking what you think
Then I I mean maybe like if somebody is powerless enough, they'll just shut up because they don't want to deal with it, right?
You know, but like otherwise, like one thing that's not going to do is to get them to say OK, now I see you're right
Especially if you're distorting their perception
Like like they might say that
They might say the words if they think they have to, right, but
They're not going to think it
Now, when you wrote this book like
What what inspired you?
Yeah, so I think there were a few things that that had been that had been going on and it kind of all started to to build for a for a while that I was I was getting frustrated that a lot of people who
I align with on most things were getting sucked into what I, how the way I see it in the book right that there that like that these these kinds of what I call pathologies of powerlessness, right?
You know that you're because you know that you can't, you know, accomplish things that actually matter
You end up getting sucked into all of this nonsense
You spend all of your time trying to prove yourself to other people you already agree with
You know and and to, and to denounce you know people for for not agreeing with you in ways that are not going to
You know lead to a single person getting health care or a single workplace being unionized
You know any of those
Any of those things?
And and I think there are a few examples that like were really starting to get to me at the at the time. So one of them was what happened. I remember in 2019
The Democratic Socialists of America, which is not you know, organization I'm a member of, you know, I think it's I think it's flawed, but I think it does
Good stuff, you know, I encourage people to do that, but
They had this convention actually in Atlanta where I live and in which
You know, I didn't, you know
I mean, I I was there for like a minute 'cause I was like meeting with my editor
But like I didn't, I didn't go to the thing itself
I kind of hate sitting through meetings like in general and life, you know, but in
But there was this montage of clips that came out afterwards that, like you know, Tucker Carlson, you know, played on Fox News and stuff like that of people announcing all of these bizarre like rules that like you weren't allowed to, like clap at the Convention because there might be people with like rare noise sensitivities and and
And just things like this, and of course you know they're like right wingers who compiled that
We're cherry picking like the worst, most ridiculous moments from a weekend
But is that what the one where this person is like?
Point of privilege is that you were a part
Of that, I wasn't part of that, but I have
You were in that room while that was going down
Yeah, I I wasn't in the room at that minute that
Come on, man, that is ridiculous
No, that's it is ridiculous
Here's what gets me about this right?
It's like OK
Granted the worst moments are being cherry picked, but also
You know they're not being made up right like this stuff actually happened, and also
It's not even like there was somebody in there with like a hidden camera right?
To get this footage right, they were streaming it to the
No, they know that
I mean, it doesn't mean it's not still ridiculous and also the lady calling everybody comrads
I mean, you know
Yeah, like what?
What do you, what is what's going on here?
I mean, I mean, I think that like
What's going like?
What gets me about this is that knowing that this is the face you're showing to the whole world, right right, that like anybody in the world who wants to tune in and watch
This can do that
You're still doing this stuff like was it somebody?
Yeah, the point of privilege thing I think was
Yeah, please stop using gendered language
Come on man, it's hilarious because it just shows like what are we ******* concentrating on your your mad that people are
There's chatter because you're easily distracted
How about get the **** out of here?
Then why are you in a large crowd of people?
What do you do at the movies?
What do you do at a bus station?
Shut the **** ** like you want everybody to comply
Yeah, and as you've got some weird tick right, and why are people doing that?
Because like you said, they can't be
I assume they're not going through their entire lives, right?
You know trying to to get people to do this stuff like
Maybe they are, maybe they're activists at work too
Maybe they're just really annoying
Yeah, I mean if so?
If so, they're probably winning over a lot of new converts all the time, but the but you know by doing that, right?
Was that the most annoying time in that meeting, or were there more annoying times during that?
Conference yeah, I mean the stuff
The stuff that I saw you know which was which was not you know, which was not that much of it, but the stuff I saw like that the things that made it into that montage were the most annoying things that I saw but like
I guess what gets me about this is that knowing that everybody in the world can see this
If you're still acting this way right, then what that shows me is that you do not
Care at all?
Like how any you know normal person is going to react to seeing this and I know there are people who will get this twisted when I say normal person
All I you know it's like oh do you just mean people who are you know whatever right?
You know, like fit some demographics or something
Now when I say normal person I mean like
People who aren't like bathed in this political subculture, so like stuff like that starts to seem normal to them, right?
Like just anybody who's you know of any background, any you know?
Any race, sexual orientation, whatever?
Who doesn't like you know who doesn't spend all day
Everyday thinking about politics, right?
Is going to see this and say wait what?
But I don't even think that's a politics thing
I think it's just a a social issue
It's and I don't think they're thinking at all that everyone is going to see it
I don't think that was even a consideration at all
I think in that moment they were very self indulgent and they had the access to a microphone and they couldn't wait to yap
And that's part of the problem with people who just can't wait to as a person who yaps professional
I mean look, that's why I think
I mean I
I said earlier that I hate meetings
This is one of the reasons why I write that they have that like it's it's always
Every every time I've ever had to go to a meeting for anything, you know there's there's always there are always people who talk just because it's important to them that they like
Hear themselves talk
About it, like it's awful
That's why it's funny
It's why that video is funny
I mean, that's a version of that
No, I mean it's
That's like the the Super Ultra progressive version of
That yeah and and it's and you know, I get that it's funny
It's it's also like
Like seeing you know, seeing people who are supposedly fighting for all the things that that I am like act that way is also like painful
It's like what what's wrong with you, right?
Like why, why would you?
Why would you do this right like?
But don't you think you need someone there to go calm down Francis?
Yeah, I thinkUnknown
I mean, that's I think you
Do right and that's part of the problem
That's part of why I wrote the book because
I guarantee you, however many hundreds of people who were there in that that hall, right, you know where
That was happening
There's a lot of eye rolls
There's a lot of eye rolls
There's no way there weren't tons of eye rolls around like like like like I you know, I actually think they're very limited amount of time that it was around that weekend
Yeah, I'm not sure
I think I heard a few people, you know, do the verbal eye rolls to be right?Unknown
Did you know point of privilege?
By the way, my friends say that sometimes
Just for a
Joke we're having a conversation like point of privilege
And they'll just spit out something
Yeah, right at and it's like
I, I think
But The thing is
People most you know, most everybody who's who's who's rolling their eyes
I mean, I think I actually think my friend Cal Brooks was there might have
He might have
Actually he might have actually like
I had a like I think somebody came actually came over to his table and they were, you know and like told him to like not clap and you know they're like that's what's what's
What's wrong with you and look at
Why are you clapping your ruining life?
You know they actually did have a little thing
About that, but they
Is he supposed to do this?Unknown
Supposed to snap fingers
Yeah, I I, I think so or
That was a thing they used
Likes to do in the jazz day
It's like a beatnik thing, right?Unknown
And and like, but most people who are going to roll their eyes aren't going to say anything because you don't want to be the guy who say anything
Right, you don't be an ******* You're not there to
Be an ******* right?
Like you're there because, like you actually care about the issues that the organization is about
You didn't sign up for this, so you could spend your time arguing with crazy people about whether clapping is OK
So I think it's a very understandable impulse, but I think what what I started to realize when I was thinking about examples like this
For a long time, like it's not like I didn't know that there were a lot of people who were ridiculous in ways like this or a lot of people who were like
Unhelpfully moralistic, you know, and in ways like that
You know what I was talking about in the comedy chapter of the book
Or you know who would would excuse things that shouldn't be excused, like in the end you know you know part
Like, but I think what I always told myself was look
None of this matters that much like some people
Some leftists are idiots, but whatever, like in the greater scheme of things, it's not that you know like we live in a world where there are, you know
Imperialist wars and union busting and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera
Then, like why spend time talking about and thinking about it?
But then at a certain point, my perspective started to change because
I actually think that the fact that there are all of those other issues that are more important is a reason to try to get people to stop acting like this, because if you actually care about doing something about those bigger issues, then if you look to like any like just you know, working class onlooker
You know who you might be trying to?
You know who like
Ideally you'd want to reach out
To right if
You look like this lunatic who's like getting mad at people because they're clapping instead of doing whatever they're supposed to do with their fingers
You know, then they're not going to have anything to do with you
And who can blame them?
You gotta weed out the freaks
Yeah, it's like some people, just they can't see the forest for the trees, right?
They're concentrated on this one thing when what you're trying to accomplish is this
More inclusive view of socialism and with how socialism could fit into our modern culture and instead they want they want you to not clap or not talk or no, please watch your idle chatter and the noise you make
I'm easily distracted like
Oh my God self indulgence
It's like it's a real problem with any group and when whenever people are trying to be like ultra sensitive and ultra progressive and ultra open minded you open the door for annoying people
You open the door for
People that just need a tremendous amount of
Attention, yeah, and there's there's got to be a way that you can
You know, square the circle of saying like OK?
Look are there
Obviously you know
Should there be more accommodations for disabled people and like society as a whole than there are sure, right?
But anything that you could call a disability should, like you, crank the dial of accommodation up to 11 like at like all times you know no, right?
Like like like should should you, should you care about like you know not, you know, discriminating against trans people absolutely, absolutely yes
Does that mean that like you need to be constantly on guard?
For like anything that somebody says in a comedy set, that could be like interpreted
If you look at in just the right light, no right?
And I think that if you think especially that the things that should be the biggest priorities
Are about the actual distribution of of material resources
You know who who has
You know who has healthcare?
You know how much inequality do we have?
You know how how's you know?
Like like have we like built up the labor movement?
All you know all of these things and trying to get the United States
To not have this like kind of imperial world policeman, you know foreign foreign policy, which by the way
As we've been like in this, we're talking about earlier, right in these last weeks, while people have been, you know
Freaking out about, you know whatever is going on in the news about
You know things that Joe Rogan said 15 years ago, or about what Whoopi Goldberg said on the view, or whatever, like
We're about to go
To war, yeah, exactly right like this is you know
I mean however slim the chance like the fact that there's the standoff with with the with Russia that like that has the potential if that happened right?
I mean that would be
And absolute like
Human catastrophe, right?
Even if it stayed conventional that that?
That would be like that would be ridiculous
And by the way, is one of many, many reasons that I wish Bernie Sanders were president right now 'cause he put out an article in the guy in the op Ed about how important it was to in the Guardian to about how important it was to, you know, negotiate to like stop this, you know from
From from escalating
And I'm not, you know, I'm not sure that I don't know what's going to happen, but like when I see like Biden canceling, you know the meeting with Putin
You know, like I I get
I get nervous and and I think that like given how destructive that would be, right?
Like that's that's got to be
You know like that's gotta override almost everything else right now, just in terms of like how important it is
That we that we stop acting like this
I don't know why the United States has to have the kind of role in the world where we're, you know, negotiating about what happens in Ukraine at all, right?
Like like why is it important that the United States have this?
You know, be like present in everything that happens
It's a weird
Role everywhere on the planet, you know
But they that that you know when you know when the United States invaded Panama, I think that was totally unjustified
But you know, like the you know, Gorbachev, you know what wasn't like involving himself
You know in in that right, you know 'cause the Soviet Union didn't didn't have that that role in the world
Not rather than we didn't either
I'd rather that like instead of having
Like however many hundreds of military bases the United States has all over the entire, you know, like every part of you know, every part of the world right now and constantly fighting these like low level drone wars that, like most Americans, have like forgotten that they're even happening
You know, in in distant countries like
I think that I think that if we redirected the kinds of resources that we spend on having this role in the world to taking care of of people's material needs in ways that
You know it wouldn't fund all of it, but it would do a lot
It would do a lot
Well listen man, I really enjoyed our conversation
Thank you for
Doing this, it was a lot of fun, yeah?
Thank you so
Much for having me my pleasure enjoy
I'll be thanks
Thanks for the Buffalo trace, it's awesome
Enjoy the whiskey and tell everybody where they can find you on social media and where they can get your stuff
Sure, so I have a show called give them an argument which you can find on YouTube and all the usual podcast
Places I write for Jacobin magazine
You can find me there
And as far as all the links to everything in this book and other books and everything else, just go to benburgess.com. That's probably the easiest way
To find everything social media as well, it's on there
Yep, social media
Twitter at Ben Burgess
But all the links
Around there alright alright thanks Brent
Thank you so much
My pleasure alright bye everybody