The Joe Rogan Experience.
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Good to see
Good to see you
Coming, I'm glad we didn't make it snow
Again, in Texas, it's close
You almost did
I mean it can snow, it might
Oh, today it's very possible 'cause it was drizzling when I left the house and it was 30 degrees so with
Is not supposed to happen, it's supposed
To be snow, hopefully it won't be the snow
Apocalypse Part 2
Yeah, last time you were supposed to come, it became a complete disaster, but it was fun
It was fun to watch people slide around and and know that this city has zero infrastructure in terms of like dealing with snow
It's it's kind of 'cause I grew up in
In Massachusetts, where it's you know they know how to handle snow out here, they're they're baffled
Do you want to?
She got to tell him what happened with you
Well, well so
My flight from my I'm from Boston and my flight from Houston to Austin was cancelled so I got the last SUV
You don't know how much I wanted to be on your show. I got the last SUV, drove through the ice storm to Austin, where there was like just dead cars. You know, it was like zombie apocalypse
Got to a Marriott around the corner from here and thought well at least I'll be able to walk if if nothing else in my room overlooked
This on ramp and I just every day for a week with no running water and no bottled water
Watched the cars just slide up and down and then I finally went out to robs house where he at least had a pool for running toilets
But I was living on basically like White claw and canned tuna
Oh my God, this was when you were
Supposed to be
Here yeah Oh my God
I still have a can of wolf chili that she bought here that, but she didn't have a can opener and she was just like I don't know how to get into this thing so
I got it a gas station
The thing is
It's if you grew up in a place that has winter, like Massachusetts
You're like, this is nothing like guys
This is a normal winter
Day, like what the **** And it it killed this place for a solid week
Well, that's why I still came 'cause I was like they're overreacting
It's just one or two inches of snow, but I didn't realize it was going to be like misting
Yeah, but you know, I mean come on, how much are trucks like?
Take care of this guys
Get some sand like is that that hard?
I mean it happens
It does happen
I mean the idea that you just like shut everything down
For a year
How much does that cost?
Seems like trucks are less expensive than whatever that costs
Yeah yeah, and all the poor people that didn't know you can't heat your house with
Well, worse people use grills
Yeah yeah they used like barbecue grills in their house and they burnt wood and they died
You know, like people got sick
Yeah, that was bad news and we were in the process of packing our house to move because we moved March3rd up to Kalispell
So like all of this, chaos is going on and we didn't know if like the moving truck was getting in and then Diana
Made it to our place and then we weren't sure if she was making it out of there like it was
I mean first world problems, but kind of sketchy first world problems as far as they go
It lets you know that there's a thin veneer of civilization that keeps all the food on the shelves and all the cars moving
And it's not much
It's not much to throw
It off right, right, you know
I'm glad this is a good time to talk about your book
The book is a sacred cow, Diana Rodgers and Rob Wolf
It's available right now
The case for better meat
All I've been eating since January is meat
Oh, I've been eating is meat and and fruit
That's that's my diet
Meat, fruit and eggs
I've never felt better
I've done this before in the past, but I never stuck with it
I would do like that carnivore month of January
I did it like two years ago. I lost £12. I looked great, I felt
Great then I started eating
Spaghetti again shocker
I get fat
I get fat and then I my joints hurt again and that's the thing that drives me that it's the most wild
Rather, is my joints feel so good like everything feels better when I'm not eating foods that cause inflammation and for me
There's something. I mean, I'm I'm not advocating this for everybody but a meat based diet for me is 100%, at least in a short term
I've never done it for like years
I know like Shawn Baker and a few of those guys have done it for years and years
But for me, short term there's nothing that's made me feel better and I can't imagine it would **** me up long term
I mean, I take a lot of vitamins
I do eat a lot of fruit, I'm my exercise
My exercise is great, my I feel healthy
I have plenty of energy
I avoided all the diarrhea 'cause when I just did only meat I had ridiculous
Diarrhea like astounding as my friend Tom Segura put it when he he tried it
This diarrhea is astounding
I'm like, yes, that's a good way to put it
I was following that and I was like at some point there may need to be an intervention like somebody like dropping you some Imodium or something, yeah?
That sounded rough
Well, there's something
About like eating a lot of fatty meat only right?
Right, there's no
Your body is like what is all this?
Where's the veggies like you're you, you always eat veggies
Where's where's the bread?
Yeah, so as a dietitian to be talking about things like this
It's definitely blasphemy
Blasphemy yeah yeah
I mean I, I get pushback like crazy from fellow dietitians
It's, you know
But what do they say?
Well, what's the goal right?
Isn't the goal?
To feel better to look better and to perform better
So if you're eating food that makes you feel better, look better and perform better
I mean, I was at 2:05 when I started this diet. Now I weigh 195 and it's only been two months
And I feel great like I'm not starving, I just lost weight
It just went
It just went away
I got my 6 pack back like I feel better
My joints feel better like I just feel better like isn't that the goal like the whole goal of your diet is supposed to be the vitality of your body, right?
Right, and the whole goal of science should be to
Question your bias and seek the truth
Well, I know Sean Baker was telling me that there's a large study that's going on that Harvard is putting on for carnivore diet
Do you, do you know?
About that, they have some preliminary data on it, and I mean it, it's there's not
It's not a randomized control trial
There's not a a control group
It it's a survey and so you know it can be very critical of surveys, but it's interesting like 94% of the people that did it got off of the medications that they were on
Like entirely and it went through and detailed like some blood sugar changes
Blood sugars improved dramatically for the vast majority of people they saw lipids improve, not everybody
Some people on kind of a higher fat
Carnivore type diet
They see their lipids go up
And nothing really happened for I don't know 810 years. But then more people started writing about it. More people started talking about it
Now we have randomized control trials and we have all kinds of different interventions, and we have some proof that something like a Mediterranean type diet is probably pretty helpful for a lot of people
So when people criticize this stuff and they just dismiss it out of hand, like, well, there's no research on it
OK, that's fine, but this is where things begin, and it's usually observationally
You know, that?
OK, there's this group of people that seem to be getting these really remarkable results, and the thing that that was so interesting to me
My background was in autoimmunity and Cancer Research and I got into this because of gut and autoimmune issues
I'm the person that came up with the autoimmune paleo diet like I'm the person
That kind of you know, formalize that initially and it works pretty well
But when I saw what people were doing on a carnivore diet it it just blew me away like it
People who had done every other thing and they were so sick they were crippled from gut and autoimmune issues
They would go on this
Modified, you know carnivore type diet and put their their problems into remission and then have really remarkable health at the end of that
And it was a few people initially, but as it has grown, it's become this like really watershed moment and I
I don't think that a carnivore diet is like the first whistle stop somebody should do in dietary change. There's a lot of other **** you could do before that, but if you're really sick, you know I, I think to to both of y'all's points. If you're really sick and you're trying to improve things like it seems like a reasonable thing to use as an intervention
Just it's like playing darts and you're just trying to get closer to the bullseye and you can use that as a beginning point
Some people add in fruit, like Paul Saladino has added in more fruit and honey and stuff like that
Shaun Baker is an absolute beast and he's he wouldn't be caught dead eating fruit, you know, and it just seems to to work for him
But I I think that it's a reasonable place to at least start and begin tinkering with things, and maybe you stick with it long term
Or maybe you modify it down the road
Well, it's got to be a function of different requirements for different people's bodies, right? Different people ask more of their body like a guy like you does
A lot of jujitsu that's very physical
Some people don't
Some people, they just hike and maybe they could have a different diet
There's a lot of different things that, uh
Person needs depending on their lifestyle, but when you talk about like a Mediterranean diet specifically, what is what?
What is a Mediterranean diet like what's in there?
It's the kind of funny thing
I mean, you've got what the literature kind of says, and then you have what people actually eat and what folks actually eat is a lot of fatty fish
A lot of like lamb and goat and and they definitely eat some legumes
They eat local fruits and vegetables, a lot of olive oil, but it looks very it
It's not this so like grain centric
You know thing that
That is typically portrayed in
So, but is there like a there?
Is there a protocol for the Mediterranean diet?
Like if someone says I'm going on the Mediterranean diet, what do they mean?
Are they eating lettuce?
Do they have vegetables?
Usually Mediterranean diet mean to emphasis on seafood lean meat
Low fat dairy to some degree, legumes as kind of a preponderance for the carbs, like usually in preference to grains, although they'll have some grains in the in the mix too, but that's kind of the
Funny venues, good amount of vegetables
Yeah yeah olives, olive oil
OK, so it's essentially like a primal diet
Yeah, like the idea is just to cut out
Processed foods, yeah
Which is always a good step
One right, absolutely?
Yeah, but then when you look at what people in the Mediterranean actually ate, it's not
It's a made up diet
It's not really a diet, it's I mean I've been to Spain
They eat a lot of pork and pork is like not OK on a Mediterranean diet
Why is it not OK?
Isn't it a fatty?
Well, fatty fish is OK but not fatty meat
So so you have, you have the what people are actually doing versus kind of what's been canonized within dietetics
And they're really different, and also to Diane's point like what folks are doing in Spain is reasonably different than what they're doing in in Greece and Italy and whatnot. You know, just kind of a granular level, but that just as an aside, the only food
I think that is common to all of the blue zones is pork, but nobody ever mentions that really
Yeah, it's literally the only food that you know from Costa Rica to
I guess the only one with that that it's not part of would be like the 7th Day Adventist
But yeah, yeah, that's a weird one, right?
That one is that when people want to lump in all the blue zones
Like they they always like to use Seventh-day Adventist because they're vegetable based, right, right?
But they also no alcohol, no cigarettes, and daily exercise
Yeah, and when you compare them to Mormons to have almost identical lifestyle but they eat meat, it's same lifespan
But the Mormons are left out of the blue zones
Because it didn't fit them
Doesn't fit the narrative
Really, plus they're problematic 'cause they're, you know their whole thing is a little wacky and they get to have a lot of wives
Or they used to
They have the highest meat consumption per capita and the longest lifespans
They like to ignore
That one so socioeconomics by far beats diet when you're looking at populations for longevity
Socio economics do so
Even someone with a poor diet but has a lot of money
So they're they're going to have better access to health care
That's a good example
He's probably a good example
Yeah, I mean he was 74. He got COVID and he kicked in a few days and he's really
Kind of chubby
He's super chubby, yeah?
So be with more money, generally have less stress
They don't work two jobs, they, so there's all these confounding factors when you're looking at these social connections
And social connections helps
In what way, when?
How do you define?
This stuff gets a little bit sketchy, but there's, uh, some research that suggests that people with inadequate social connectivity like friends, family
It kind of loners, but you know, they're just socially isolated
That that is as negative on health as a pack a day smoking habit
Now that pack a day smoking habit gets thrown around a lot because people will say eating an egg is equivalent to, like you know, smoking 6 cigarettes or you know something like that, but it but it
Yeah, that's silly nuts
But I think when you think about like
Human evolution and small group environments and stuff like that
There's something really powerful there and it is clearly
You had Sebastian younger on and they they talk about
You know, poorer communities tend to have more social connectivity and you don't see suicides within these groups and whatnot
And there's a lot going on there, but I think that that
That social connectivity in my mind is on par with sleep and food with regards to overall health
Like if you're really negatively impacted there, it's it
It's going to be a major piece of of your overall health, and if you tick that box you can get away with a lot of other stuff
Yeah, so so I was listening to a book heartbreak
It's it's this new book out about a woman that got divorced and she's she gets really sick and she's trying to figure out why her health declines and she's kind of going through all the all the numbers and trying to seek it out and talking to these neuroscientists and everything
Your chance of dying early for loneliness is by far beats out cancer or autoimmune diseases
It's loneliness, wow
That makes sense
I mean, people make you feel good, like if you have good friends and you're around them and you're laughing like how?
How is that?
Not good for you, right you?
Know it really should be prescribed
Exercise is critical, but not the primary factor
I think it provides the quality of life and you know when we think about longevity and kind of healthspan versus lifespan
We want to live as well as we can as long as we can and then very short, you know, decline and and then you know, fade out and I think that's smart
Exercise a base level of cardio, some resistance training
Then just doing a variety of activity
Good mobility that I think that that feeds into the ability to do all the stuff that we want to do and also like
You get sick, you get injured, you get in a car accident or something like people you know
If you're you're better shape, you're just harder to kill
And I think that that
Is such a major factor, but I my opinion you could, you know, maybe agree, but I think when people tackle exercise as a calorie burning endeavor like you're much better
Time spent focusing on good quality food
Very protein centric 'cause it tends to be satiating so you don't overeat so you exercise so you have a ******* life
But if you want to lose weight, good body composition, it's really the nutrition part that that addresses the bulk of that
So the people that do exercise just for calorie burn out
But the problem I usually have with that is that I I don't think they enjoy it
I think they think of it as this task that one
Must do in
Order to look better or to justify a Sunday, you know, justify an ice cream sundae or a bowl
You know where it's like you should
You should enjoy the results like you feel good like it's great for the body
It's a stress reliever, it relieves anxiety
It's so critical if you're going through any like stressful period of your life
That is the time
Well, you gotta be like discipline
With your workouts you gotta hit em
It's a medicine
That's how I feel
Yeah, and sarcopenia is something so that's age related muscle loss and we know everyone over 40 starts to lose their ability to digest protein and so your need for protein and your requirement to even just maintain muscle mass goes way up as you get older and the RDA
Is like so far below
It's set at the minimum to avoid disease
It's not the optimal amount, but even that RDA is way, way, way too low for bridging, yeah?
Well, what is the RDA for?
Protein, so the RDA is .8 grams per kilogram of body weight. But then because Americans don't like kilograms and and they don't want to do the calculations, you'll see these numbers floating around
So for women they'll say women need 45 grams of protein and men need 55 grams of protein or something. But that's based on this
Ideal body weight of 125 for women and 1:505 for men
What do we live in the 30s?
And so yeah, so the average weights according to the CDC for for women is 165, and for men it's like 195
Is that real?
The average weight for women is 165
For American women, wow, yeah. And so when so then when you go .8 grams per kilogram
You're way above what what these RDA?
Now you're at about double what the RDA is
But then when you look at optimal amounts so we went through this in the book and I looked at all the research and how they came up with the RDA and you know we really need at least double the RDA of protein and we need it from animal source foods is a huge difference
Animal and plant source proteins
Now that this is something that vegans their hackles get up immediately
How much real data is there that shows like actual real-world data that shows that plant based protein is not as bioavailable as animal based protein?
I mean, that's just basic biochemistry, it's just a fact
And what So what is it?
So if you have like 30 grams of broccoli protein versus 30 grams of beef protein, like what is the difference?
Oh, that's a good question
I don't know exactly how like broccoli would compare to beef
Probably be a lot a lot
Of mass for broccoli, if you wanted to get 30 grams of broccoli protein like how much broccoli would that be?
A big *** bowl?
Of broccoli, you have your the beans
I do have it for
For legumes, so let's look at that
In fact I have
Yeah I have it
Yeah I have it
I don't know if the the Dropbox link that I sent came through
So I've got one comparing beans to beef and I have it for protein for vitamins and for minerals
And for farts
There's really no comparison
But and and the other thing is is that's limiting
So here we have
So we don't just need protein, we need amino acids and so and there's a popular meme out there comparing broccoli to steak and how you can get all your protein just from broccoli but but kidney beans are much better source
So I went with kidney beans and so 4
Ounces of steak versus 4 ounces of kidney beans and when when you see these plant based memes
They will be comparing uncooked beans and they will be doing it by calorie, not by
Right, so we need to, you know, look at you know portion size
And and why are they doing uncooked beans because?
There there's more beans in uncooked beans
Oh, I see 'cause the water is not yeah OK
It's like double
But it's not realistic in terms of portion of food, because you'd cook them and they swell up and
You just and the calories that you would need to eat to get all right
So we have only 9 grams of protein from 4 ounces of kidney beans
So in order to get the same even close to the amount of total protein, you would need to eat
Over three times, the amount of kidney beans
So and that would be, you know, somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 something calories of
And then you need
Of kidney beans
To have rice with it as well, to to to balance it out
Right versus 180 calories of protein from or 180 calories from 30 grams of protein steak
And you know on that, like sarcopenia side like losing muscle mass as we age and also just for athletics, isoleucine, leucine, some of these branched chain amino acids are are the really important amino acids because they
Stimulate anabolic signaling, and you have a threshold with that
If you don't hit a certain threshold, it doesn't turn on the anabolic signaling, so you're you're tending to lose muscle mass
It's kind of some some broscience like you need to eat every two hours or you're going to lose muscle mass
It's not to that point, but we do need some amount of anabolic signaling exercise
Specifically, strength training causes that anabolic signaling and then eating a protein rich meal
That's that's rich in branched chain amino acids causes that signaling too
And it's it's not impossible to do via plant based methods, but it's hard like it's really kind of a calculus problem
To get that part, that box ticked like you need to do protein powders and stuff like that to usually get in there and and make that happen
But then you also get a ton of calories comparatively
Wouldn't the these simple solution be to if you wanted to have a plant based diet, is to eat the plant based protein but then substitute with exogenous amino acids?
You could and that
If you did that
And stick more with lagoons and try not to get your protein from like quinoa or peanut butter
Like nuts are a really, actually horrible way to get protein
We'll get to in a second, but when you're making exogenous amino acids, is it possible to do that in a vegan way?
I mean they can just synthetic chemistry
What are they making amount of?
I mean then it's, you know it's other chemicals, but you could make it in a bit completely vegan
Friendly way, but it's chemicals, but not bad for you, just chemicals
Weird weird, right?
Word word right people panic
Right, so you could in fact get all of your amino acids and have some sort of plant based protein
Yeah, like what is the optimal plant based protein?
Is it pea protein?
Is it hemp protein like what's the best one?
I would probably say
Pea protein would be optimal
Pete yeah yeah
But you know, it's it's we're we're meant to eat things in their full form, and so if you were to
Actually eat peas
Yeah, that's a lot of peace
Right and how are they extracting the pea protein?
A lot of kitchen chemistry
I mean you gotta separate out the the protein, carbs, fat and then isolate the proteins and whether you do a hydroxylated
The proteins like kind of pre digest them or leave it. Leave it together. Usually hydroxylate's taste horrible so
Yeah, but I mean in in like an idealized world
If somebody is really
They want to be vegan, but they want to take the boxes of of
Getting that anabolic signaling, preventing sarcopenia, improving you, know body composition
That is a way that you could do it and it would be vegan and it would give the the right amount of protein, not overfeeding you, potentially on the the calorie side, and that could be a way to
Kind of thread the needle so someone's like a vegan weightlifter, right?
And that that's the way they should do it
They should have like pea protein and then substitute with
Supplement rather with amino acid
With especially with the branched chain amino
Acids and these are all the ones that you need
Leucine and isoleucine are the main ones, and the and then valeene
But the leucine is the most anabolic signaling of all of them
And so if someone wanted to do that, like what, what would you take like?
What's what's a good late deserve a good brand branched chain amino acids
Does brand change when they say branched chain amino acids is that usually contain all these that we're seeing?
On this chart, not all of them
It'll be leucine, isoleucine, and valine typically
And so all those other ones
Should you have all those in there like how?
How would one supplement with like a fully?
Like if you look at all this stuff that you're getting from meat, it's crazy
Yeah, there's so much more like if you wanted to get those benefits
I mean is that what's going on when someone says that meat is not as bioavailable?
Is that part of what's going on?
Is that you're just not getting the same benefit from it because it doesn't have the amino acid profile
Oh, and this isn't even taking into account bio availability
That's like a whole nother discussion
This is just the label, like the USDA Nutrient database numbers, but that doesn't take into account the protein digestibility score
So let's let's explain to people that are just listening
We're looking at this chart and it shows the sirloin steak on the left and the kidney beans on the right
And the amount of amino acids is in most cases four or five times more, if not more than that from the steak
Then you're getting from the beans
The beans have a similar calories, but only 9 grams of protein versus 30 grams of protein for the steak
So this is what we're looking at
And then I have this broken out also for minerals and for vitamins just so the micronutrients that you're getting from animal source foods too, which are far superior to
So here we have
But this is just beans right?
Which are not really known as primary sources of vitamins
They're touted as the magic food
Beans for vitamins
For for nutrient density
Not for vitamin A since they have 0%
But this is the
This is kind of the cul-de-sac you get stuck into though, like how do you get enough protein?
How do you not overeat and then what type of nutrient deficiencies are you facing at the end of that?
Like it it it's
Well, if you
Look, it's funny that they put vitamin D 'cause you don't really don't get vitamin D from food on both of them have zero percent like why is that on there then?
It's just part of the USDA
Oh, I see. And vitamin A again. It's like you know we get 1% from steak, but the big ones are vitamin B12
That's a big one, 'cause if you look at big the the big difference in B12 in kidney beans you have zero percent B12 and steak. You have 95% of your USD and that's just for 4 ounces
There's a small portion of sirloin steak, and you're getting almost a full daily requirement of vitamin B12, which that is a big factor with people that are on a plant based diet is getting their their B12
Yeah, and we iron and B12 or two of the most common nutrient deficiencies worldwide
And both of those are common in meat and not very common in in plant based stuff
Stuff, yeah, and whenever there is a nutrient in both plants and animals, our bodies prefer the animal source nutrients
Why is that and how do we?
Like example beta carotene, which is like what makes sweet potatoes, orange and carrots orange
We have to convert that to vitamin A retinol, which is the usable form
So when we eat an animal source of vitamin A which is in fats of animals
We're getting it directly and there's about 45% of the population has a gene that makes it so they can't make that conversion efficiently
So not only do we have to convert it, but then almost half of all humans can't do it very well, and so to convert
Beta carotene to vitamin A and that's just one you know
Heme iron in animals
Half of the people that can't
Is it because of the location of their ancestors is?
It that's my guess, because what we see with Omega Threes is people that you know lived along coast where they were getting their Omega threes from fish
Lack the ability to efficiently convert plant source
Essential fatty acids to the ones that we actually need for our bodies to use
And so, how would one know?
How would one find out if there that may mean maybe some people could digest sweet potatoes really easily?
Some people can't like what
How do I know?
Some genetic testing can ferret some of that out, but now that we have people that come from so many different backgrounds it it can be challenging and the genetic testing isn't isn't perfect on that
You know you can find it
Maybe you have a high likelihood of converting the the carotenoids into retinol
But then some some of these nutrient issues are gut related, so if your gut microbiome is deficient in
Some type of of bacteria you may not even get that the the conversion to be able to get the the beta carotene into your body, so that's another layer to it
It just gets really complex
Like I, I think you almost go the simpler way of instead of trying to get in and and get super detailed on like the genetics
How do you look?
How do you feel?
How do you perform?
Keep kind of an inventory of what you're reading, and then if we if there are some pretty classic nutrient deficiency syndromes, you know like dry skin and split nails and things like that for for zinc deficiency as an example, and so it's almost easier to go that way versus trying to get in and then from like first principles
What's your genetics and what's the perfect diet that's going to work for you?
Yeah, so the bio availability
What do we know in terms of the bio availability of the print?
The plant based proteins versus animal based proteins like how do we know that the body?
Is absorbing the protein more efficiently from an animal source?
I'm trying to pull up the UM
The protein bioavailability chart 'cause there is a chart that sets it and it's animal source proteins are always above plant source proteins 100%
Mechanistically, what they do is they'll figure out a given amount of protein, and then they've fed that to people, and then they will look at serum amino acid levels
After that kind of track them over time so and will based proteins
You're going to let's say you give them 30 grams of protein and then you track over a 2 hour period
The branch all the amino acids that we that we see go up and then down during that and you can compare that to beans or broccoli and and so that that is a piece of how you figure out the the comparative bioavailability of 1 protein versus another
And you see this even just with like cooked proteins versus non cooked proteins like
Could I know that there's kind of?
I like eating some like steak tartar here and there and stuff like that, but there's just kind of a reality that meat that is cooked is much more bioavailable
For the proteins and also the nutrients that are in it versus raw meat
That's interesting, like what about rare?
I'm not sure on that because it's still cooked some, so I'm not
It's cooked on the outside, but the inside is pretty
Yeah, it's cooked on the outside
Yeah, I don't
I suspect that you're you know, like if you were to suivi something and slow cook it
And in it's cooked thoroughly
I think that it would
That would probably optimize, like the bioavailability of the the whole protein, yeah?
What about the difference between like a medium, rare and a well done is well done, less bioavailable or more?
I think that well done
It's probably more bioavailable, but it, but it tastes so bad that what's
I thought about that it's a really good question
I I don't know for sure, but
If you only eat a tiny piece of it because it tastes horrible, then I don't know if it's really help you
Because I'm always wondered, like, particularly because of game meat, 'cause wild game meat is always being touted as being much more protein rich than domestic cattle
And I I eat a lot of that stuff, so I'm always wondering like what is going on, how?
Do they know it's definitely lean?
So I mean you're getting a lot of protein per serving because the game meat is so incredibly lean
So when you compare it
Per calorie, or even if you've just got, you know, four or five oz on a scale. If you have like a rib eye, what is a rib eye like? 20% fat by weight? Something like that
I think it's more 45%
It's 45 by calories. Or is it 45?
Percent by weight
Well, so so
There's no carbs in meat, so all you have is protein fat
So if you're looking for like what has more protein like boneless skinless chicken breast can have more protein than a burger only because
As less fat
But it also has less nutrients overall because the a lot of the, like the fat soluble vitamins, the EA, not really DK is is all in the the fact
So that's one of the benefits of eating at least some amount of animal fat, because those fat soluble vitamins kind of associate with that
About the difference between a red meat and a white meat like a chicken versus like a you know grass fed steak
Beef is about30% more nutrient dense than chicken
Per calorie and chicken is really high in Omega 6 is
Like really high the inflammatory no
Is that good?
The inflammatory fats so you know, we're we're a lot of people think chicken is more
Virtuous to eat for some reason
But it it's yeah like like you, you know there, you'll see like everyone who has these like clean eating books that are eliminating meat, but they'll still have boneless skinless chicken breast in there of course, and it's more like almost more like tofu of meat
Virtuous is that
You know it's not
A bone like white and you know
Kind of clean looking
Plus, chickens do a little heartless dinosaurs
Yeah, you know people don't really, you know cows you could pet them and stuff chickens
Just trying to figure out if they can
Eat you and they will
If they could? Oh dude, I used to have chickens and they pecked at my daughter's feet. And my wife was like she thinks that the hand
Thinks our daughter's foot was a mouse or a warm something. Oh no, she's trying to eat her daughter
Like what do you think?
She's just dumb
This is a dumb little marble ********* head
He's trying to eat our kid like like that's how I thought about that chicken
I'm like FCK off you little **** like ****** birds
So I always tell people like if you're in a grocery store and you don't have access to, you know, know your farmer or grass fed beef and you're just looking at pork, chicken or beef
From a nutrient density from an animal welfare and from an environmental perspective, actually beef is going to be the better choice when you're looking at the industrial food system model
That's OK, so this is where we get into the weeds, right?
Because when you say that in any way that beef or raising beef is good for the environment in any way, shape or form, that's when people go nonsense
The doctrine as stated upon high is that if we want to save the environment, we have to
Eat less meat
Yeah, I hear this from people with no evidence
I hear it from people and they spouted out and I go
What are you saying?
Well, you should know already, they'll they'll give you that
You should know already that if you're eating a lot of meat, it's bad for the environment
Like how's it bad?
Tell me how it's bad, what's going on and they'll bring up factory farming
I'm like, well, factory farming is horrible, it's horrible
Everybody, everybody says
Disgusting, but what about regenerative farming and they're like, well, that's not sustainable
That doesn't work
Or we don't have the
And this is where sometimes I think that we chose to do the book and film because we wanted to commit career suicide and public public self immolation both at the same time
Because it's like we
This thing ended up ******* everybody off because we don't
We're not totally in the like whitewashed regenerative AG camp like we
We see some laudable features, two pieces of like the industrial system and some of the meat that we brought you is from a local outfit that mainly pasture feeds there
They're meat, but when they were, they were in a drought situation and so they reached out to some of the local breweries and they got
A bunch of
You know, residue from the brewing process and that's what they supplemented their animals with
Some kind of barley grain, yeah
And and that's a whole other interesting thing
Is the bulk of the the food that is given to cattle comes out of the ethanol industry
It we're not stealing food from humans to to do that with chickens and pork, you kind of are allocating food that could have otherwise
On to humans, but even conventional beef spent 70% of its life on grass and then that finishing process, oftentimes part of the finishing process
They put it in a wheat field where the the wheats been harvested and then it it eats the crop residues and it's eating
You know the the mash from
You know industrial or or
You know, drinkable ethanol production, so there's a whole interesting nutrient upcycling story there that just gets buried, and it's really important, and it's really valuable to very efficient, but it doesn't really fit into either camp, it it isn't this beautiful view that that we would like all these
You know grass fed
Pasture raised, you know, stories to fit into, and it's definitely not the horrors of like industrial chicken production, which is super gnarly
Super gnarly what is drinkable ethanol?
Beer, wine, you know
Just just the stuff because you have industrial ethanol and then you have the stuff for it, but a lot for for you know, beer, wine, spirits, all that type of stuff
Or even oatly they got into trouble from some of their followers because the hulls from the oats were going to feed pigs
And Oatly is a is a oat milk company
What is oatly?
OK, I hate when they say that oat milk like not does not come out of oat breast
Stop it, you stop
It with the milk
You know that's not milk, it's just you're doing weird **** with water, right?
You know it's not
Milk it's oat T
Yeah, yeah, that's that's good
Yeah, call it oat white OT yeah
Or almond T
Yeah, but but there's a lot of leftovers from their processing, so they were feeding pigs with it, which is an awesome use of that
But the vegans found out and put the kabash on it, and now they're trying to form oat bars for humans
Oh God residue
Out of this inedible fiber that exactly
And so, but the you know with cattle because they're ruminants, they their digestive system is very different than a pig or a chicken
And a cow can actually can upcycle stuff that has no other use in our food system is just going to sit in a pile and emit greenhouse gases anyway if we don't feed it to cows and so they can actually eat
Stuff we can't eat and turn it into beef
Interesting, so that's the the grain that's left over the mash that's leftover from the breweries, and that's this oat stuff
And so the the vegans got upset and was they were upset because they were bringing it to people that were giving this stuff to pigs that were going to be led to slaughter
Wow, is there a way to like?
I mean, it seems like it's silly to just not use it
I mean, you know the Earth uses it, right?
If it does biodegrade, it's going to compost and it's going to
Have some sort of
A function for days, but when you're dealing with industrial levels of that, like in in Brazil, there's a problem with the banana peels 'cause the banana peels are actually
Pretty toxic and it's hard to figure out how to how to deal with those things
Wait a minute
How are banana peels toxic?
When I watch so many people on Tik T.O.K make shredded pork out of banana peels?
If they really get after it, they're going to have a a rough day
They're going to **** themselves
Have you ever seen that ever?
Yeah yeah, yeah
Seen him do that
So that's not edible, right?
Like what are they doing?
They're basically like spicing up garbage
And trying to serve it as pulled pork?
Yeah, that is so weird when they do that
Does Shawn Baker videos where he's sitting there have you haven't seen his?
And he's just horrified
Shaun Baker has a giant cutting board and literally like a machete, and he's just slicing into beef and he's eating this like 4 pound rib eye
And while he's cutting into beef
On the other side of the screen you see someone making like tofu ribs
Yeah, here it is, yeah
Look at him
It's some of the best performance art on the Internet
Well, like the size that ******* tape
I do love the size of that night
The the knife is so preposterous he's just taking big slices of meat
Oh, and here's the banana peel
And so they're taking this banana peel and they scrape off the stuff on the inside
So he's eating pork too, and so he's eating real pork while they're eating this stuff
Well, it's like what what is in a banana peel
I mean what is it?
Just plant fiber there's or any nutrients at all
I mean technically there would be some nutrients, but what it has is the anti predation chemicals to keep things from eating the banana
So it has these, uh, I don't know if it's opponents, and I think it's opponents kind of a soap like substance, but it will really irritate and damage the gut lining like they try to feed it to cattle and even cattle that are really good at eating kind of squirrely
Things it will make the cattle sick
So that's just the outside though
Why doesn't the inside have those things?
The inside of banana?
That even that stuff that she's scraping out has some of that in it
But the banana itself doesn't
The banana doesn't
I interesting, yeah
That's why fruit is
Doing well for you right now
So fruit wants you to eat it because it wants you to deposit the seeds somewhere
It wants you to pull it out and so the seeds will be fertilized and then they'll grow somewhere else
That's the it's whole strategy plan
Yeah, that's the thought process behind way
Paul Saladino describes his
You know he's he calls himself Carnivore MD
And basically he's got a meat based diet
But he supplements it with fruit
And this is the first time I've ever tried to do it that way, and it's so much easier to do right than just eat meat and it just
It's great because before workouts like today, I had two bananas and then I worked out like if no problem exercising, whereas I was when I was just eating meat
I was a little draggy, like when I
Was working out and I love meat but the only time of my life like I've eaten kind of a ketogenic diet for23 years, but there are some some a little bit of fruits and vegetables, some different things in there, and the only time that I had like neurotic food desires was when I was doing like strict carnivore like
And I wanted pizza and ice cream and **** that I never wanted before
Like I I went kind of crazy
Loosening it up and having a little bit of fruit a little bit of honey here and there, particularly for you know pre or post workout or something
Like I'm I'm fine with that
Do you think that's what is that process of converting the meat to sugar gluconeogenesis?
Do you think that that's what that is?
It's like your body, like cranking it up
It's an expensive
Process, it's a hard process to do
Could be that could have been
I was just nuts
You're I mean
Rob and I are already really restricted with our diets
We both have celiac, so
Yeah, so like
What is Cecilia can't have any wheat, can't have any
What it what it?
What is the bulk of the restrictions?
Yeah, I mean everything on the inside of the grocery store is just completely or even going to a Taco place
And if they fried the corn tortilla on the same griddle as the flower one, I would have reaction
It's it's celiac, has an autoimmune gluten sensitivity so the villi the little finger like things that line the gut that help absorb nutrients
Those just get killed via an autoimmune reaction because the body is
It's made antibodies against proteins in our body by mistakenly making them against the the gluten gliadin proteins
But how many people have this and don't know about it?
I know that
They they think it's one in a133
People have it
Wow, it took me until I was 26 to find out that I had it I
Had it my whole life
And you were just eating pizza and going off
And being very sick
Yeah, interesting so
So there's the celiac thing and this requires you to stay away from all glutens
Is there anything else that it requires you to stay away from?
Are you allow?
Is are nuts OK?
Like peanuts, walnuts
I mean, I definitely feel better when I eat a diet more close to what you described
But yeah, strictly meat was a little intense for me
Although you know I wanted to mention I had a nutrition client who with
And so, and I've sat through these
They're like AA meetings, but for people that are compulsive overeaters, so like their reward signals just light up
Times a million in their rain when they when they encounter certain foods
Really, what is that?
Yeah, I mean that you know, I think some people just are prone to addiction
Or is it?
Is there like a sync like is there a thing you could track in the brain when they're overeating like this?
I mean my theory on this is that
Some people are just low dopamine and they may get into heroin
They may get into gambling or they may become compulsive overeaters, and it's just sort
Of how it plays out
Well, like some of my clients they
Do all of the above
Or or or all of them
But so I sat in on a meeting when I was a Dietetic student and
They all have to identify their trigger food and then agree to not eat it and abstain from it
So sort of like an alcoholic type meaning except for unfortunately for them you have to eat
You can't avoid eating, you know
And it was white foods that was
Unanimously, the trigger food for, like all these people, but it's still can be overwhelming to figure out what you're going to eat
And so anyway, I had a young woman who she just wanted to go carnivore
It was easier for her to like
Just give herself only that and she lost and she had rheumatoid arthritis that went into remission
Gosh like 60. It's still going actually. I think the last time I checked was 60 or 75 pounds
And her arthritis went into remission
Yes, So what do we think is happening to people guts?
Do you think that it's the plant defense chemicals that are messing with people?'s guts, do you think with when it comes to, obviously not celiacs, which is an extreme version, but when people do have issues with autoimmune issues that are food related?
But it what is causing this stuff?
I, I think there's a lot like we have now. You know, antibiotics were developed in the 1930s like the sulfa based antibiotics and it was 1950s ish that the more penicillin derived antibiotics started hitting
So how many generations now do we have, like mom, to baby, mom to baby like alterations, potentially in the gut microbiome?
So some people who have the celiac gene don't express celiac disease because they have gut microbes that that trim up the Prolia lendo peptidase
It it the Prolia Linda peptidase bacteria that break up the the gluten proteins
Is that something someone could supplement with?
Kind of, but it doesn't work that well, like it it
It's kind of like, uh, it will protect you from like cross contamination a little bit, but like you get so sick with celiac, it it?
It's something that I would be careful
You know, playing around with that, but you know
So you've got antibiotics
You have alterations in in just our environment
I think that there's gut issues, mitochondrial issues and then changes in our food supply, so I think it's a lot of different things
Low vitamin D levels like the autoimmune diseases track very, very closely with
Latitude you tend to see relatively little autoimmune disease near the equator and then you see it much higher at higher latitudes, so vitamin D is a big factor, so there's a lot of different things that go into it, which is a little bit of the problem of trying to figure out how to fix it, because doctors have a tendency to just say that people are crazy or it's mainly in their head because there's like this piece and that piece and the other piece
There's clearly a piece to a loss of gut barrier function like that's pretty well understood
Alessio Fasano like he he's a researcher mainly looking at celiac disease, but he has celiac disease as a model for autoimmune disease in general, but there's a loss of intestinal barrier function when intact food particles can make it
Into the body, then the body can mount immune responses to everything, and then the flip side of this
And maybe why Carnivore works so well is it if somebody eats a very simple diet, it doesn't irritate the gut
The gut can heal and then the body is not primed to be, you know, reacting as as much doesn't mount the same immune response and so you can kind of dial that
That inflammatory process down
There's there's also other people that think that you know when you live in a really clean environment and you're
Oh yeah, the hygiene hypothesis
Yeah, so so all of us have immune systems that want to be working and and exercising themselves all the time
And in places where you're more likely to have parasites or you know other pathogens through your food
Your immune system is busy working on all that stuff and and keeping you healthy
But when you are living in a place where there's just not anything for your immune system to work on, then it'll work on you and start attacking yourself
How much do you buy into this idea that plants, whether it's like kale or whatever they these plant defense chemicals that these plants emit are causing some autoimmune issues with people?
For sure they they are
In some people it shouldn't really be that way though, not to the degree that we we see now
And this is where just looking back at Lake
The 1950s, you know, people weren't celiac existed then, but it didn't exist to the degree it does now
You didn't see these multiple chemical sensitivities that that folks have now
Plant defense mechanisms are definitely there
I mean, part of the reason why people soak sprout and ferment grains and legumes is that it?
Decrease it's those things, so within most traditional food cultures there's ways of taking relatively toxic food to making them less toxic, like wait, what do they do with the Taro root to to get the cyanide out of it?
I mean just cooking, but they will also prevent it
Oh yeah, that's a big process
Yeah yeah, but yeah
Even with corn and lime
Yeah, corn and lime, isn't it
So there's a lot of historical food systems that
That help deal with this stuff, but it it just when you look at most traditional food systems, it took pretty good care of people like not everybody on the planet need to eat Paleo to to have really outstanding health
You know traditional meso American food
Even though it was very corn rich, they they figured out that you needed to
To do some things to
Prevent pellagra, which is this B vitamin deficiency ultimately, which was the inclusion of lime but
There's something that's changed where we are
The inclusion of line, what do you mean?
The the the
When you make corn tortillas, traditionally you you like ferment it with lime and that breaks down some of the anti nutrients
With the corn it makes it more digestible
Oh, I see yeah yeah
So this is when they're making the tortilla
So what about the difference between a cooked vegetable versus a raw vegetable?
Because one of the things that people love to
Say is like, oh
I only eat raw
Vegetables and I'm like hey man, I don't think that's good
I used to think that was good
But I don't think that's good anymore
Period, I mean it's just really hard to digest them
And I mean when you look back at traditional cultures pre agriculture
What you ate when you could get that and then all the other stuff was what you ate when you couldn't get the meat
He stated to survive
Just to give you some calories
Yeah, but meat meat is the most nutrient dense, perfect food for humans
It just is
It's such an exhausting conversation when you say that to people though
Like you said, I think you know you're eating all that meat
Like what about your cholesterol?
What about you gotta have a heart attack?
Yeah, and it's working its way into policy, which is really disturbing to me
Like as a mother like New York City public Schools vegan on Fridays
Now, in addition to Meatless Mondays
So now you've got
A school system where 70% of the kids are economically disadvantaged
And might go home on the weekends like they need school lunch, right?
And now you're, you're you're flanking the weekends with nutrient poor both Friday and Monday
And it's this ideologically driven thing that's based on this idea that if you eat less meat, it's better for the environment like this thing that they say
And they also say, for health purposes like, oh, they'll, they'll, they'll cite the China study like this one ******* study and like, no matter how much you say like hey, you need to read the rebuttals of the China study because they're pretty brutal and it's it shows that it's a lot of biased evidence and that they really didn't do a good job of being objective about that
So there's one thing that's that's coming up that's happening right now. That's really interesting, so there's this thing called the global burden of disease, and this is published by The Lancet, and it's what most global food policy is set on. And between their report in 2017 and 2019
Meat was 36 times more likely to kill you
And there were some researchers, some friends of mine that pushed back they wrote a letter to The Lancet which was blocked
Blancett, it sounds like it's finally going to be publishing it like over the next couple days
Finally, publishing this thing that says that meet us36 more times
Oh no, that's out the 2019 global burden of disease is out, and I actually had a, uh, a graphic on that, just to show
What are you saying is going to be published?
So some friends of mine right?
Because these guys didn't provide any evidence at all
As to why meat, so there's this theoretical minimum risk exposure level that you know is supposed to be the safe level of meat you can eat, and it went down to 0
According to these researchers, which is going to be global food policy?
You can now eat 0 red meat safely with no so that they said they did their own systematic review, but they were
They didn't show any of the evidence any of the papers they reviewed, and there aren't
There's no research that's strong that's showing
Meat is, there's only one randomized control trial
If they're not showing you evidence, any evidence, they're not not showing any papers
How is this?
How is this science?
Right, and so finally The Lancet is going to publish this paper where my colleagues are questioning
The results and where is the science and the land set?
I mean the global burden of disease is the land set
This is a really
Very big deal
So I don't understand like what is there I I always thought that with scientific papers you had to cite sources and you had to so
Up until about two years ago, that was pretty consistent, and then I think we've seen a loosening of standards
Yeah, here's the difference. Between 2017 and 2019, so you can see the top part is what we're doing in excess and you can see that diets high in red meat used to be a very small percentage of like the cause of death globally
Which is even a silly thing, but it was it used to be. Sodium was much higher, and now meat has gone up. Do you see this 36 times more likely to be the cause of death?
In two years
So this is the study
This is and this analysis when when they're doing this, how are they coming to this conclusion?
Nobody knows there, they're just saying it
They just tell you they're just saying it
So what is their motivation?
We don't really know
I mean a little tinfoil hat YII think that there's a powerful desire to consolidate food production globally and
This is an amazing way to do it it it's
The as it is, there's I think that six or seven companies produce like 90% of the food that's consumed globally. But what we've seen over time is just more consolidation, more consolidation, and
There's this kind of weird interface between tech and venture capital and food
There's been some interesting pieces where folks are looking at food like they want it to be operated, like IP, like software
They want you to be able to own the intellectual property around it
It's interesting you say that because Bill Gates is now the largest owner of farmland in the United States
We looked at that up once there was some sort of dispute about that, but then we looked at
It said he was right
He wants to be
He seems a lot, but it
That way, shitload, yeah
He's the gates
Gates Foundation is one of the major sponsors of this study that I was just talking about
OK, so it's ******* so and but The thing is, he keeps saying that we've got to eat less meat
And you know, we've got to cut our consumption of meat out to be healthy
And then we're going to get used to these meat alternatives when a guy like that says that I'm like, are you making money because of this?
Like why are you saying that?
And by the way you look like ****
Like 'cause if you're eating those those plant based burgers or whatever the **** you're doing, like you're obese like a guy like that telling people about he's got these breasts in this this gut and I'm like this is crazy
You're one of the richest guys on Earth
You have access to the best nutrients
The best you could have on an amazing trainer
You could be in phenomenal shape and you're giving out public health advice
You're giving out health advice and you're sick
It's like literally like a non athlete trying to coach professionals like what the **** are you talking about?
How are you giving any health advice?
When you look like that, your health is **** **** I'm not a doctor, but when you've got man ***** and a gut and you're walking around, you have these like toothpick arms
I'm like, hey buddy, you're not healthy
This episode is brought to you by athletic greens, even if you have the healthiest diet imaginable, it's hard to give our body everything it needs, which is why I take athletic greens
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Unhealthy, there's a lot
Of profit to be made in in processing something into
Beyond Burger, there's a lot of profit
To be made
But those aren't even selling anymore
Have you noticed that?
We're kind of lucky in a way like the the consumers kind of got in and poked around that
And there was Forbes didn't interesting piece where they there was so much interest from the vegan community around Impossible burger and impossible foods
And this warpspace was interesting
It made the case that these people were usually very progressive and very anti corporation
We're like the biggest fans or, or, you know, promoters of this corporatization of our food system, which is kind of where
All this stuff is going what we're
They're getting duped
They really are, but you know it's on the one side
There's this story that meat will cause cancer and diabetes and all this stuff, and it's going to destroy the planet because of carbon emissions and it it's using all the water and the land
And and it's a
It's a slick story
It's an elevator pitch
It's like buttoned up air tight
And then when we start trying to unpack that
You have to dig into ecology and non equilibrium thermodynamics, and it's not an elevator pitch and it's a lot of work to to unpack what those claims are, and then you know even what is the motivation to do this
Then we start getting into conspiracy theory
Land is like, well, there are people that want to control the food system and they want to
You know, turn food into intellectual property that they own, but
It's that really seems to be what's going on with
This, and I think they're they're not
They've realized consumers aren't going to just buy it in the grocery store
And by the way, it's twice as expensive like beyond burger is twice as expensive as organic grass fed beef
Per pound, but they sell it in half pound packages right next to the pound packages and so
No, they trick you
But so, why not just make it policy and indoctrinate these kids from kindergarten to age 12
With these messages, like the Meatless Monday, messages are all wrong
Like they're all wrong
What is the message?
Meat is bad for your health and the environment and and they use these beautiful simplistic infographics showing you know livestock takes up 3/4 of the land
OK, but it's not talking about the types of land you know or that your burger used10 bathtubs full of water
But then we're not talking about
OK, that the most of the water footprint for a cow is actually in the grass
It's called green water
It's like water that's already in the environment
In rain, whether the cow was there or not, it's going
We have that infographic like that one is
Yeah, I have the the water one
Really, if you want to talk about how much water a burger uses up, you better not be eating almonds
Exactly, yeah, exact or not being you better shut your mouth if you're eating almonds, right?
Those things are ridiculous
So here's the water one and I've broken it down
Land use feed use, but this is just the water one, and So what most people don't get is that there's, you know, green water's natural rain. And then the blue water is like what when you look down on a map and see
Rivers and lakes
So what we're looking at folks that are just listening is when you look at typical beef versus grass finished beef
It looks like there's probably like how many dots are on
A little different, so we're we're at the bottom. I have the percentages so it's 94% green water for typical beef and 97% green water for average, and this is average, like in Vermont
It might be different than
Nevada, but so they have it broken down to these droplets, and these droplets is 100 droplets on each side and two droplets
From the grass finished beef or lakes streams and underground water, 3 droplets from the typical beef
So and that's what everybody is concerned about
What people are really concerned about the concerned about the draining of the lakes and streams and
Underground water leaks
So it's not drinking water, it's
And the rest of it, the entire graph is natural rain, which is rain that exists
Moisture that exists
Well, yeah, and I mean it's going to fall on this land, which is land that has been grasslands for eons and we can't use it for anything else
And vegetable matter plant matter
When people say we
We use all this land for cattle
That's you know, bison or a a good example
I'm good friends with the folks that own roam Free Bison Ranch in Montana
They they do both cattle and bison because the cattle don't go up these super steep mountains, and so they you know they're these grassland mountains that the bison graze, and if they don't graze it then the whole ecosystem just collapses
The the the ecosystem has been this plant animal interaction for millions of years and
This plant animal interaction is based on the animals manure fertilizes the plants, the animals eat, the plants, dung beetles
Dung beetles, insects, birds
You know all this stuff so it's not stealing land from anything
This is what grasslands do
It's not stealing water from anything
This is the rain, sleet and snow that falls on the grasslands, and these animals should be there because it's part of a healthy ecosystem, like the Audubon Society in the last 10 years as beginning
Really involved in regenerative act because one of the first things that they see when people start doing pasture based meat is that the bird species come back and come back in in remarkable profusion because it starts fixing
If you fix all of the ecosystem issues, then these literal Canary in the coal mines end up getting addressed and we see more bird species
Come back, this brings us to this whole idea of regenerative agriculture being scalable
And and is it?
So I well first of all85% of the beef cattle in the US right now are grazing on land. We can't crop
Yeah, so 'cause cattle only spend about the last three or so months of their lives on feedlots and so really good grazing can happen even if they do
End up being finished on grain
So most cattle are not all cattle, so they don't just eat grain
From the moment they're babies, you know
They grass and then when they're getting ready to slaughter them, then for how many months they eat
Grain three to four are usually about 3
And then they basically get sick
It depends on the system
I mean it
Like like this beef that I brought you today
They're still out on pasture
They're getting some grant
I mean, there's there's there's like kind of middle ground
It's not like all good or all bad
You know, in an area where if if he were just to let his cattle graze
They they cattle wouldn't have enough grass because there you guys aren't getting rain in Austin and so the cows would get sick so
How to do something to supplement what you're saying?
Yeah, and we have
I mean, we're going to have a brewery process we're going to if we're going to do ethanol, what are we going to do with all that stuff we can feed it to cattle to?
Right, but we're when we're talking about scalable when when something scalable and I guess we kind of glossed over the beyond meat thing, we probably should go back to that
But is it scalable in terms of the entire population?
Is there a like?
What if everybody abandoned veganism if everybody is like, hey, I'm sick, I'm tired of this this is not working for me
Where I'm going to go to some sort of sustainable agriculture way of living is that without any factory farming, is that possible for the entire country?
One thing I want to bring up is that Diana had went to Southeast Asia at the can
We talk about the Merck deal and all that like antibiotics like I just want to throw that one out there because there's pieces of this system that cannot go on
So we use a huge yeah
Cannot go on
So we use a huge amount of antibiotics
In chicken and pork production, because of the proximity that they
Like you, you can't do industrial chicken without the antibiotic inputs that we have because they're just on top of each other
Merck and some of these pharmaceutical companies recognize this, and so historically like before the 1940s, chicken and pork were a background part of the food system, like pork was fed largely food scraps
Chickens were just kind of a background part of of farms
It wasn't a a main feature
I think it was Herbert Hoover that said something like a chicken in every pot is like a
You know, uh, campaign deal
This was the beginning of the industrialized food system
Chickens were expensive
We chickens were expensive
Yeah, it was usually beef and lamb and things like that that were the mainstay, but we know for certain that the current industrial food system is broken at the the grain production level because of the damage it does to the topsoil, and it's broken at the animal production level
Because of the damage that it does to
Our our antibiotic defense basically like if if we lose the ability to use antibiotics because of creating antibiotic resistant bacteria, we're all screwed like it, and so Merck is starting to educate folks that produce beef and or pork and chicken that we have to figure out sustainable ways of doing this
And it looks a lot more like Joel Salatin or White Oak
Farms where you're integrating all this stuff, so when people just immediately say, well, does regenerative AG scale?
We definitely need to address that, but like the current system has an expiration date on it
We have to find something else, and in the book and the film we don't lay out specifically, we didn't
We're we're not trying to be future is saying this is the way that this is going to work, but a lot of what we suggest is that food production should be done at a regional level based off the resources and like the knowledge and the culture of the people that are there like
What happens in Nebraska should be really different than what's happening in like Venezuela or something like that
Like you have different resources, different infrastructure, different cultural values, but there should be an integration of plants and animals and the whole thing should probably look a lot more like an early 19th century farm with like good technology inputs than just
Industrial Rd crops is kind of the ultimate thing that I think we take away from it
It does sound like he's dodging, so I did go through the numbers in the book and it does look like we have the land in the US right now to grass finish in a regenerative way
All of our beef hurt
Before we go on to that, and I do want to talk about that like what it's causing the need for antibiotics specifically, is it the factory setting where everyone is jammed in together?
That's what it is
Yeah, when did that start happening?
Robb Wolf1940s, you know when we so we had the Haber Bosch process which made industrial ammonia
For firearms and munitions, and then when we got done with that, we're like, oh, this stuff makes amazing fertilizer and it it really is amazing
But it also damages the topsoil, but it it
Produces huge amounts of food like ingrains inks
Makes great fertilizer but it destroys the topsoil at the same time
Well, it it makes great fertilizer in that you can short term and by short term I mean like maybe a century, century and a half
You can produce a **** load of food
But when we think about our planet, we want our topsoil to last forever like we want to come back 5000 years from now and have this topsoil better
Than what it is today, so there's there's tradeoffs, like in the short term
It's good from a productivity standpoint, and we started getting
Excess food production in a way that we could industrialize things like pork and chicken production by by the inputs of grains and whatnot
And then in and then in the 70s is when it really ramped up with chicken and that's when people started getting like super affordable chicken
Because there was also, I believe it was vitamin D
They realized was a nutrient that these chickens really needed in order to thrive in a factory setting
And then as soon as they figured that out plus the antibiotics, which not only keeps them healthier but actually disrupts their Biome enough to to make them gain weight
Oh yeah, that's right
That's right, yeah
And so that those were sort of another couple of magical things
And then in relation to the fertilizer, I just want to mention with the war happening or potential war
We're also running out of fertilizer, so we have to start
Using animals for nutrients because there's just not enough
You have to mine potash and we you, there's just that's already a limited thing to in addition to nitrogen
So you mean fertilizer just for monocrop agriculture just for growing corn and soy and all that other stuff that we
The cropland, yeah
Grow in massive massive quantities
So a lot of the concerns that folks have like damage to waterways from effluent from like you know, CAFO beef production and chicken and all that
It's terrible, but it's also something that if we did more decentralized production we broke this stuff up and we had
Cattle integrated with pork, integrated with chickens and the effluent
You know, their their byproducts, the the feces urine re integrate that into the soil
Historically, that's what we've we did before the industrialization of the food system
This is what people still do in most of the developing world is they have plant animal interactions
Bringing this stuff together
There's certain economies of scale that are really cool with the current system, but it's
It's not like a Ponzi scheme, but I mean it's got an expiration date on it like we are breaking elements of our ecological system by kind of strip mining the the ability to produce lots and lots of food right now
Yeah, that's one thing that I always try to say to people that are very plant based centric thinking
Stress on them
How unhealthy for the world monochrome monocrop agriculture is like this?
Completely unnatural like you can grow food
You can grow meat in a very natural way like the polyface farms model Joel Salatin's model, but if you want to feed the whole world with corn and grain
You've got to have these massive fields and you're not going to grow anything else but this one thing in these massive fields
And whenever you do that, you are damaging that ground
And that's what lab that's what goes into lab meat and all
Beyond burger and impossible Foods, they're not using organic products in
I mean they're using100% Legit Chemical AG to make their products well
Well, now this is
It's like one of the most processed things you could ever eat
So all these people that want to eat healthy plant based like if you want to eat like a healthy vegetarian diet, you certainly can
But if you want to eat a healthy vegetarian diet and also pretend that these process things that are filled with
Seed oils and like what exactly is in a fake meat burger?
And how bad are those things for you?
So I mean just on a on a nutrient density level, they've never
I've never seen a full breakdown like they'll say, total protein total fat and it'll line up, kind of
But like the fats coming from soybean oil, not natural, the protein is limiting in the amino acids, but we still have yet to see a full
Nutrient breakdown of all the junk
We put in and of course it's better to eat real meat
What is what's the main ingredients of those burgers?
Pea protein is one of them and then
I think soy ends up like on the oil front and then also just some of the protein also
What if they mixed those burgers in with a branch chain amino acid profile?
I mean you
Would you do that like have a bodybuilding beyond burger?
You could you could be beaten
Know make a lot of money
Make a lot of money, you make a
Of money, yeah, but you you're you causing inflammation
Are you giving people issues with the seed oils like soybean oil?
That's not necessarily good for you, right exactly
Yeah, and and you're still like for every calorie that you consume of that you're not consuming something else
So where are you getting the vitamins?
The minerals the and you know these other
Things in a in a developed world you you could go to your corner store and get vitamins and and do all that
But what's kind of squirrely is that
This whole story has been so tight into climate change, they're really pushing that the developing world adopt this stuff too
And this is 1 interesting area that
Different places in developed world have pushed back because they're like we can't be dependent on this like we have these traditional food systems
And if you
If you make us dependent on the exports of, like your industrial real crop food system, where one we're super dependent and two we we can't afford it, and then the Third Point which Diana really detailed this well in the book
These folks don't have access to like a CVS to go get their B vitamins and their folate, and you know their zinc and their their iron and everything and
The the same deficiencies that underlie a vegan diet looks shockingly similar to what people face when they're in a malnourished state in a developing country 'cause they eat a very starch centric
You know monocrop type of type of diet
That is typically the main deficiencies in there largely arise from a lack of animal foods
So when when people talk about the difference between seed oils and there's other vegetable oils that are not bad for you, right?
Like olive oil is not bad for you
Avocado oil is not bad
For you, why?
Why are some corn based oils and seed based oils?
Why are they bad for you?
Just the the ultra processing and the the ratio of omegas in them, and they're polyunsaturated
They're not really supposed to be heated, and so they're very unstable
Create free radicals
So if you use them as salad dressing, are they?
OK, I mean, but they've already gone through the high heat process and are rancid, and they just kind of
Add deodorizers so that you can't smell or taste the rancidity really yes, and then they also add coloring to make it look like a butter color, like you notice all the oils that that's not a natural color for canola oil to be
Is it white like a clear rather?
Oh, there's an interesting video out there on the the Great Khan Ola and it shows the process of making canola canola oil it's
Go to that Jamie
You got that
He's got it
The great oil
I'm kanola kanola, so canola oil is
Rapeseed oil that was invented in the 40s to be an industrial lubricant
Yeah, the just the name alone is problematic, so these these seed oils, they're they're all rancid when they're stored in this way
They're they're usually go through a very high heat process in order to extract the the fat out of the seed
So just that process alone renders them rancid
And if they didn't go through that process, there was there's no way to get the oil out of the seeds
So there's coldpressed, but then
OK, like olive oil, some of its
Gold price, right?
Or like grapeseed oil you you might see in a health food store that cold pressed grapeseed oil, but you, I suppose if you were to use it on like salad dressing and not cook it, it might be OK
And is that OK?
But it's still not
There's nothing redeemable about grapeseed oil like and
I'd have to look up the Omega ratio, but you're much better with avocado oil or or just good olive oil
So why is avocado oil and veg and olive oil?
Why those good for you?
They tend to be high in monounsaturated fat and then relatively low in the Omega 6 fats like they
None of these things have much in the short chain Omega 3 fats
Some people get kind of wrapped around the the axle though, like high oleic safflower oil is typically lower in Omega sixes than all of olive oil is
So just on that Omega 6 Omega three side like it can get a little bit squirrely, but then you have the the additional piece of how was it processed?
Like if it was cold extracted
Then it's probably safer from like an oxidized fat perspective versus if it was heat extracted so it does get a little bit
Complex, and that's where like a good quality olive oil or like butter or lard or tallow or something is just generally safer for most things
The first device
Then no worries, then we get to this these fake meat burgers and these fake meat burgersUnknown
They're using soy oil
And then how are they making it look like meat?
I, I mean kitchen chemistry
I mean some of the stuff that Shawn Baker has videos of just kids doing in there
Somebody made a
A pork roast, not a pork roast ham
Somebody did a ham
And when it, I couldn't believe the stuff they put in on the front end, but when they were done and they were cutting it like at it looked like ham in this
Really see if
Yeah, I mean I, I was super impressed
You can find that way
They actually commented on like it
It kind of gives me a little gut ache to look at that, but I mean the finished product and this is somebody just doing it in their kitchen and I thought it looked just looking at it from a video
They, if they had real ham and this fake ham, I wouldn't tell
This is Sean
Tell the difference
Sean Baker would be on his Tik T.O.K you
Think probably yeah Instagram or Tik T.O.K, yeah
He's become a Tik T.O.K celebrity
Yeah how many Tik T.O.K fans does he have?
I don't know
I don't know a lot
It's amazing they haven't kicked him off
Tik T.O.K is ruthless with kicking people off
It's great with kids
I have two
Teenagers and my son follows
Paul Saladino is now
Also doing that diet like and meanwhile I've been
Telling him forever?
Yeah, that's hilarious
That's very funny
Yeah, I see his videos constantly, which is very funny to me
That this is, you know, like this guy with a big knife
Eating meat has become ultra popular, but they're like they're brutal with their censorship talk
Just remove removes videos left and right
Just call it hate speech and just yank you off, yeah?
Yeah, but I I don't know exactly, but I mean they're going to extract the protein
Some of the fiber they're going to extract the fats from these different things and then you start putting it together in a kitchen chemistry format to make it look
Like meat and their blood, like how they're making beet juice
OK, so here it is
Oh wow, that's interesting so
This person is look at his face
Is he doing riding a stationary bike?
Oh God, so they're making this like weird dough with some kind of flour
Probably wheat gluten
Yeah, weekly, weekly
So this is going to give celiacs a ******* heart attack
And then what is he doing?
He's like rolling it around
And then wraps it
But look at this
One like that
Looks like ham that looks like ham and that's just in this person's kitchen
Pretty wild, yeah?
Vegan ham, yeah, but it's amazing
Like the process that's involved in that, like all the kneading and twisting, like when he ties it into knots
He's putting all this stuff in there
And in the film Sacred Cow, when I have Robin Joel Salatin talking about all the inputs that go into beyond burger and impossible burgers, I actually was able to use their own promotional footage
Just with Robin Joel talking about how disgusting the process is and getting this
What did you get?
What did you call?
It. Biological goo
Just over their own promotional footage of how what a miracle it is of of these vats, that they've you know
Oh, we need to see that is that available online?
Can someone see that the the process of making it beyond burger?
It was just
It was an impossible foods, it's it's
I can look if he can't, it was just the impossible foods like making of impossible foods
Yeah, and The funny thing is is they're only claims, so they can't win on nutrition
They try to win on ethics right?
So they try to say no animal died for this
OK, here it is
The making of an impossible burger
Wow, it looks legit
Look at that
Looks like a burger
There it is
How do they taste?
I haven't had
One I haven't had one
Don't you think you?
Should have one just to comment
I could take that bullet I guess
I feel like I should
No, there's there's another one with
Take they actually put him in it
Oh wait a minute
No, I did have one
I had one my friend CK brought it to one of the shows that Chappelle and I were doing at Stubb'sUnknown
Do you know if it's one of these?
Uh haem the magic ingredient the impossible burger heme he himself
It could be that one because you can see the vats in the background
And you just
Anyway, I had one I had a burger that was in it and it just like tasted like a bland burger
It was from some local place that makes some plant based burgers and then some like real burgers
So this is them getting excited about these smash burgers that are made
Look at these guys
This is just like a real burger
Has anybody ever eat them and go?
What the **** is?
This this is not a burger
Why are you feeding me this man?
I mean, it's some great kitchen chemistry
Wow, look at the fake blog, the Beet juice and then they have to get the flavor profile right?
But basically when you're eating it as a burger?
Then you're eating all the other stuff, the bun
And there's the lettuce and the tomato and the pickle and those you know
Maybe you had a little sauce on there or some ketchup
It's probably easier to get that as a reasonable facsimile
With all the other stuff, yeah
Yeah, that looks like beet juice
I drink beet juice
Should I drink beaches?
It releases nitric oxide like beets and beet juice are pretty legit
Really good, like before training right?
But in limited amounts, right?
Because there isn't too much robeats toxic, yes?
Yes, yeah, the salicylates in it
Yeah it could give you make your kidneys fail
Too much raw beets, so every now and then have a
Beet juice I think more like a Oz or something
Yeah, it's funny that these people think that they're eating something healthy while they're eating this big *** bread bun
It's kind of funny, right?
It's kind of funny like the the promotion of this as a health food and then you see them eating this fat bread bun
They're like, hey?
So, so they can't really win on health
They've all given up their health claims
What was the initial health claims?
Pretty much the you know that it's healthier and everything
Looks good, I gotta say that looks good
They'll say it's less saturated fat
Don't look good Jimmy
Is that is the cheese healthy and watch it
Too, I like cheeseUnknown
I like cheese
It was probably vegan cheese too
Which is like who knows what that isUnknown
It's a lot of whatever it
Is it's a crazy burger that's for a glutton who's also a vegan?
Who's 80 stacks of?
Patties on that sucker, but Umm, so you're you're saying like their initial claims that have been invalidated
Yeah, so now when I go to their
Websites, I don't see a lot of health claims and and I do know someone who's working on really taking
Those products and comparing them to meet like and breaking it out for vitamins and minerals, 'cause it's just not going to win
But now so their main claims are now carbon, less carbon
And completely ignoring all the other
Ecosystem function pieces that monocropping
You know, but at least
The damaging aspects of it
Right, so like in all these you know, United Nations Food Systems Summit
We all have to
Reduce our carbon and everyone is so
Laser myopically focused on just carbon
And that I think really comes from these fake meat companies, because that's the only thing that they
Have you know is that a valid claim that production of this fake meat is like pound for pound or reduction of carbon emissions versus animal based?
Like even the grossest version of animal based agriculture and factory farming
Because most of the greenhouse gases are coming from cattle as part of their digestive system, its methane gets emitted
And after 10 years the methane gets broken into H2O, Water and CO2, carbon dioxide
And it goes back down into the plants. The plants release the O2 in photosynthesis and then the carbon becomes the plant, the roots, and then it can actually store carbon in the ground and then the cow eats the carbon and so it's a cycle. And I actually have a graphic showing that methane cycle versus fossil fuels. So fossil fuels are mining
Ancient carbon from the Earth's core and pumping it straight into the atmosphere
It it couldn't be part of a cycle, but it's going to be through plants and animals
So we're we're seeing a there's a
Uh, a beautiful
Sort of a chart infographic chart that shows how the carbon from the atmosphere gets converted
In the methane, it's converted and so a lot of people think it's cow farts
It's actually cow burps that are the big producer of methane, right?
And then it shows the cows carbon cycle meat and milk and how the poop
And this is like that explain this without saying everything on the chart B
And even if
I said it wouldn't work
I have them
I have all these charts at sustainable dish back slash Rogan and people can just take them and share
Oh OK, great sustainable dishes your website
OK, So what the difference is when the cows are emitting this map, they were thinking of it as just carbon
Carbon equals bad, but the carbon that they're emitting and the way that this there is a cycle that they're eating this grass they're belching
It goes into the air. It becomes H2O and carbon and then it. The carbon goes back into the ground
It gets into the grass
They eat it again and it goes on and on and on, and it's a normal part of what it means to be a ruminant animal on a planet that has grass, and they eat that
Grass yeah. And so in the US in North America
We don't have more methane emitting animals than we did before we got rid of the bison and the elk and all the other natural ruminants that were already here, and so we don't have a net bigger amount of methane
We just have cows instead of bison and deer
And the crazy thing is, even if we did, but it's still part of a cycle to get to the point where the cow is emitting methane yet to pull carbon dioxide out of the air into the plant gets sequestered in the plant until the animal eats it, but it this cyclical part really
And yet Steven Koonin recently like he talks
I think he talked a little bit about the the differences between the cyclical you know pieces of this story versus just mining ancient carbon and and releasing it, but
It it the accounting really needs to be different because the danger that we get into
We discovered recently that shellfish produced huge amounts of methane at termites rice paddies
Like there's all, these biogenic methane sources that then people start freaking out and there was actually some some scientists that were asking, should we eradicate shellfish so that we reduce their carbon footprint and it's like they're suggesting that we
Reduce the amount of life on the planet so that we can protect life on the planet and
Or in Sweden with the moose
Yeah Sweden there there there
The Green Party in Sweden wanted to kill all the moose in Sweden because they emit methane
They didn't go through it
Didn't pass, but it was proposed
Oh my that's so *****
God and this is this carbon tunnel vision where you get so focused on carbon release and you lose the bigger picture of all this other stuff that's going on
That is so ***** Kill all the moose because they admit carbon, right?
Joe Rogan'cause they admit, methane?
That's what's driving these poor kids in New York to eat vegan school lunches, and I mean
So who started all this nonsense?
Where's this? Is it bill?
Gates I think
It bill I'm a I'm
A fan of your operating system, but once I'm
I'm not all bad on you buddy
I think you need better friends but
I mean we we we go into it a little bit, how meat became a scapegoat and
Meat is a very powerful
It's the most powerful food we eat
It's it's it's it's masculine, it's strength
Bloody it like it
It represents a lot of things that you know we used to have sacrificial
Meat is also seen as barbaric and impure and unnecessary and too masculine and so
There's this like deep weird cultural narrative that's really hard to tease out exactly where it all came from initially
I mean, we idealize vegetarian cultures as more purer than ours, and there's a
There's a really great example of that just showing
I have two graphs, 1 showing the ideal diets in the world and then one showing the global malnutrition
And it's interesting how the ideal diets are causing the malnutrition
But we're idealizing them because there's no harm, and it's pure, and it's
All of that, I think
So how are the ideal diets causing malnutrition?
Is it from a lack of?
Animal Source foods 100%
But is it?
Can they be like this has always been the big debate, right?
Can you have a vegan diet and and be completely healthy?
Can you do it?
Is there a right way to do it like we're talking about adding sustainable or adding amino acids?
You know, adding vitamins, is there a way to do it?
I think it's all if someone is young and healthy already
Probably was raised, breastfed well and and raised on enough, you know
There does appear to be some people that
Do OK on a vegan diet for a period of time
Is there a rough estimate of like what percentage?
I mean, no, I, most vegans, you know, give it up. 85% give it up within three months
And it's usually a health event
It's not ideal, I mean just from a pure
Humans are omnivores and we need the nutrients and animal source
Foods I'm reading about this guy was a vegan
It was a vegan for years and he finally decided to he's having all these health problems and he ate a piece of salmon and he said it felt like he was having an orgasm
Yeah, yeah, like he couldn't believe how good his body felt
I read that one
Like it's like
It's it's SAC like I hate being the I told you so guy, you know like I hate like I I want people to be able if if they if you don't want any animals to die for your food
And they're going to die anyway, unfortunately
But if you want that, does anybody?
Want coffee or?
Anything good good?
Because of that, you know you you don't like, I mean it just
It's it's an uncomfortable discussion 'cause so many people are so ideologically connected to this idea that a vegan diet is like better, more calm, free, like healthier
And we're seeing what we're seeing with younger people
Is that health isn't driving it, it's ideology that's driving it, right?
And so they will suffer personally for their ideology, and so they're really clinging onto the carbon story and the ethics story
A lot of them become these vegan influencers and then they get busted eating fish
Like that then they get attacked by the community
I've seen that happen multiple times where people were like really suffering and they started eating meat and then people went crazy on them
Or there was that piece where if they're out drinking, they have a tendency to snack on, like some burgers
Oh yes, oh, that's a giant percentage of vegetarians will eat
And yeah, yeah
Meat when they're drunk
Yeah, you know when we when we set in to do the book and this was a long time ago, we thought that we were going to tackle the ethical part of this thing first
So we cover the health, environmental and ethical considerations of a meat inclusive food system is kind of the big deal
But one of the things that became interesting, Diana really kind of spearheaded the health side of the research is that it becomes really hard to grow a human on a vegan diet
I mean like you look at moms and their nutrient needs and then passing that to the next generation breast milk raising kids like
When you start trying to attack, you know push this thing forward
It's really hard
People can do it, but it's So what?
You're talking about when a woman is pregnant
Yeah, yeah, and there's been documented cases of
Was it Finland?
Pregnant, what's that?
Was it Finland that they they did the interview with the Welt like wealthy Finnish families that were vegan and like they they had really?
Pretty terrible nutrient deficiencies within these folks, and these
They're educated, they're supplementing
And they weren't able to consistently pull this off, yeah?
Yeah, we see babies, so B12 deficiency
Causes permanent brain damage
Or it can
And and B12 supplements. If vegans take the vegan version of the B12 supplement
It is actually
An analogue. It's not real B12 and your your cells think it's B12?
They'll absorb it, but then it it actually blocks real, but it can make your B12
Yeah, it's a B12 analogue. It's not actually B12, it just pretends to be B12
But I thought you can get B12 from algi
It's not true B12 really, yeah?
So when you're getting B12 from like blue green algae and spirulina and all that kind
Of stuff like what are you?
So it's above my pay grade
I don't know
I I think it's, uh, in isomer
I think it looks
It it may be like the folate needs to be a right hand shape and this stuff is a left hand shape and so it it can plug in and
And so is it partially effective, is it?
So there was a documented case of a a vegan breastfeeding mother who was supplementing with B12, and her baby died
And she was supplementing that with the vegan form knows that this could be a rare issue with her
Yeah, it could be could
As well, yeah one person, but when we look at general populations
Kids who don't have access to meat are much more likely to be stunted, to have delayed cognitive development, physical development, behavioral problems, and we only have one study that looked at kids with
Meat versus less meat
There's only one randomized control trial
Everything else is like, oh, this population hate me and this one didn't
And these guys got more cancer
It must be the meat, but you know that's you can't like make policy on those observational studies
So this randomized control trials in Kenya, the kids at school that got a meat snack
Did better than the milk group and the over calories group
And that's the only evidence that we have, and so there's no evidence at all that pulling me away from children is going to result in healthier kids
Now when you get a standard B12 supplement like non vegan, what is that from?
I'm honestly not sure
I don't know if they extract it or if it's purely synthetic I, I think it probably
If you get a synthetic version of B12, wouldn't that be sufficient for a vegan to?
I I would think so yeah
I know that
That there's non vegan forms of B12 and I
Don't know what it's from
But like actually not analog, but actually the actual B12. OK so
When a person is doing that like what what is going on in their body, their body thinks it's B12, so it acts like it's got enough B12 and then it's just not getting it
Yeah, it's Chris Kresser writes about it
I'm going to
Pull up his
Study right now
So like for
There's certain toxins that you can do competitive inhibition so that the toxin doesn't get into cells
So it's something that looks like the toxin it it binds to the receptor site
It could keep it out, but it can work both ways, so you can have different nutrients in our body
Like amino acids are like they call it L lysine and L DOPA and whatnot because they're they're left hand shaped you it
If you were to put them together in 3D space, they could have an orientation that's either left handed or right handed
The right handed amino acids by and large aren't biologically active, and so there's a number of things like that that it within the nutrients that
Trying to think of another one like DL phenylalanine like people will use that for chronic pain
It's both the D and the L form
Normally L phenylalanine is the form that we use, but the D form of phenylalanine seems to have some interaction in the brain where it it?
It actually causes some pain reduction, but normally the the D or the R form of of
Those types of nutrients don't really work in our our Physiology
One of the things that you hear about a lot lately is the idea of bugs being a viable food source, and that might be a way to get vegetarians or vegans to eat
Like a sort of a living protein source because
There's a lot of vegans that don't seem to give a **** about bugs
It's really interesting
Like I, I lived next to an ashram when I lived in Colorado and I I was visiting this lady who lived at the ashram
We were talking about something and she was spraying bug spray
She was killing Bugs and I was like, hey?
What's the story that?
You're supposed to be a Buddhist like you're not supposed to be killing bugs, and she's like, well, there's you know certain concessions that we have to make, and we have bugs that
Get in our trash
And I was like, Oh my God, like how do you Europe a murderer like this is like mass scale, slaughter, of of life forms, yeah?
Look at like
We have to make this distinction like what is important
Is it life or is it life with fur?
Is it life that weighs more than a pound?
Is it like like people don't seem to get that upset?
If you kill a bug right, you could kill a bug on you and not even dispose of the body
And no one freaks out, like if you swat a mosquito
You just basically kind of like move your hand a little bit and **** you
It's like small enough that we seem to be OK with that thing, just
Where's the body like?
Where did you put that?
You just murdered a life form?
No one gives a **** but if you stomped on a mouse in front of people, they'd be like what the **** is wrong with you, rob?
Why do you just stomp on that mouse?
Clean that like it gets to a certain level where we decide it's either cute enough or large enough you know, and when it gets to things like a Buffalo
That's why it's large enough so that like that's too big to kill, but that is that equivalent to an Ant because that Lady is out there spraying bugs
It matters, yeah
She's killing at least a life form
Is that one life form?
That's an Ant?
This tiny little thing is that as valuable to you as a big bison, and if not, why?
Tell me why?
And then, especially if you look at how it's produced, right?
Regenerative AG versus typical monocropping
So if you're going to have one cow
That's almost £500 of meat
And if that cow was raised in a way that increased total life underground and above ground and brought all these birds back and everything
That was a life that actually led to more life
Yeah, well if you buy corn, you're definitely responsible for some death
There's just no if ands or buts about it though
If you have a mono mono crop field of corn, the only way they're going to keep those animals from eating the corn and to keep you know when when they plow over the corn and they extract it, things are dying
There's just no if ands or butts
About it and then they'll say it
But I didn't intend for it to die
I don't know if that's good enough, you know?
I mean, if you're like shooting a gun into a crowd and you don't intend for anybody to die
But people die
I think you're still responsible for that death
Yeah, it doesn't hold up very, very well
Yeah, you don't
You might not be looking where you're pointing the trigger, but I think that this idea of a 0 sum game this this idea of never losing any life
It's kind of crazy, and one thing that people that are proponents of plant based diets really hate is when you bring up plant intelligence
They really hate that they really hate the idea that plants might not just
Have strategies to avoid predation but might have
Real time maneuvers that they do in terms of like changing their chemicals where they changes their flavor profile emitting these
These defense chemicals 'cause they don't want to get eaten, and there's some sort of an intelligence that plant plants not just have, but they have with this symbiotic relationship
Two fungus under the ground and these these mushroom, the mycelium, and the root structures of these plants are sharing resources and they communicate and they it's a really complex system that reeks of intelligence and we don't totally understand it, but we have this thought in our head that if it doesn't
Move then it's OK to kill, even though it's a life form, but we've made this distinction that a plant life it it does not have the same feelings
It doesn't cause pain
It doesn't cause emotional harm
It's not like us, it's as removed from us as possible while still being alive form to the point where we could just
Yeah, in order to make a field for a corn or soy also you have to annihilate whatever was there before like whatever forest like you're killing habitat and animals
In order to make room for this monocrop to happen, and then the pesticides and insecticides and all that stuff
Too yeah, and just having that kind of a structure where you have this one plant growing in this massive quantity is totally alien to anything that you ever find on Earth in in terms of like I mean, maybe you'll find grass like large grasslands
But then again, the grasslands is sort of like this weird little honeypot where the Buffalo come over and eat the grass and they ****
And then the bugs and the whole thing, and the manure
And it feeds itself
It makes sense there's none of that going on with a monocrop
Soybean well and it
It's really not a monocrop too, like there can be dozens or hundreds of different plants in that that grass ecosystem, and they change throughout the
True good point
Season and yeah, good point
Yeah, and the amount of cropland that we have that can actually support that
That has healthy enough soil rainfall or access to irrigation is flat so that you can drive a tractor over
It's actually quite small now bugs
Are bugs good for you?
For eating them, yes I have
I mean, I've heard that they are
I don't think my my opinion on like crickets is that it's going to be a great animal feed for like chickens
Or maybe a bardar
For for dudes, you know, yeah, like
You're talking to the guy used to host fear factor
Crickets are small potatoes
Compared to paying you to writing everything
Yeah, I mean I've eaten
I ate so much garbage when I was on that
Show, but I don't see them as
Like a regular
But they do have their good source of B vitamins, right?
I believe their B12 rich like you could eat like crickets in there. I believe they're a good source
Probably because our animal
Yeah, and you know it it it's a little bit even like the cultured meat though, is that you still need an input to feed those critters
And I'm not, I think that they could and probably should play some sort of a significant role going forward
But what is it that we're going to allocate to those critters?
You know, grow them here to grow
Feed them with and where you gonna grow them and what kind of how much land do you?
Need to grow crickets also cricket
Farms are disgusting
Are pretty nasty
Yeah, any picture of a cricket farm
They're like these cardboard tenement cities
Wow, I've never seen it, yeah?
Oh, there's a lot of cricket poop, and if you if you don't right so my daughters got really geeked out because they want to figure out some
Is this a cricket farm?
These are cricket farms cricket farm
So if you don't manage them, the crickets become cannibals and they
Eat each other
Oh Jesus, of course they do monsters
So look at their crawling all over the walls
Can you can you show me a video of a cricket farm?
I wanna see what they look like
So when I was in Mexico, we checked into this hotel and they had a bowl of cooked crickets and it's like a a normal snack and my girls were like
Yeah, I'm not eating
How do you?
That, oh like I'll eat it
I got one of my daughters to eat it
She ate a cricket
We used to get a a cricket protein bar and my girls liked
Yeah, see this
It they're kind of salty, so why?
What do you have to do to keep them from eating each other?
Just make sure they have a lot of food
It you to make
Apparently it hits some population threshold and then they'll just start
Oh God, like nature has a built in safe mechanism to make sure that and so that's them all ground up
Killing each other
What is that like a cricket cheesecake?
Looks like a carrot cake
Character yeah carrot cake rather oh look
At her she's bold, she sticks
Her tongue out with cricket
On it so
So these are like different kinds of cricket proteins that they've turned these things into and cricket snacks
So look at this poor guy
Why is he got a mask on?
It's because of the pandemic or just chicken smell
It's hard to tell right these days like why are they wearing masks?
Is it because of the pandemic or is it because this is what they do when they?
So these guys are working so they tighten the the shells
Like you can get a an allergy to it, kind of like a shellfish allergy, so they're probably wearing it for that, it's it
Oh, isn't it very closely related to shellfish?
Yeah, I mean, if you have a shellfish allergy, you
Oh, I can speak to this if, as when we were on fear factor, we found out that if you have a shellfish allergy, you are also allergic to roaches
Can't can't eat yeah
Yeah, we found that out by feeding people roaches
Oh, that's a nice way to find it out
And then in EpiPen
And they're they're throat seized up and I had to leave the show
Yeah sorry dude
Crickets are anthropoides like shrimp, crabs and lobsters
This means they contain some of the same protein
So individuals who are allergic to shellfish may develop an allergy crickets
Yeah, would have been nice if the people that were run in fear factor ******* ask those folks
But hey, it's a long time ago so
What's the protein and the nutrient profile of a cricket?
Is it similar to?
An animal I
I think they're really good, you know, like pound per pound
Their conversion of feed into basically nutrient upcycling, I think, is really good
Here, look at this
Crickets are good source of vitamins, minerals and fiber
In addition to protein, crickets are high in many other nutrients, including fat, calcium, potassium, zinc, magnesium, copper, folate, biotin, pantothenic
That pathetik acid and iron one study found that the iron content of crickets was 180% higher than
That of beef
But you'd have to eat a four ounce
Block of cricket
You wouldn't be doing that if you were
Hungry, but if they're good they taste good
If you have the right dipping sauce
Lobsters taste good
If it's a shellfish thing, right?
Like shellfish, tastes good, right?
Everybody loves lobster, right?
If if they take, I mean, isn't there a?
And you know, I think that this is at least some of the questions that we need to ask. Like right now, 50% of the food that we produce globally isn't eaten
It basically gets landfilled and so we could, you know when people start asking about scalability
At a minimum, we should be better about what we do with the food that we have
Like there I forget the name of the outfit, but
Some folks in New Mexico, they have a pork operation and they've made relationships with the local
Grocery stores and restaurants and basically their their food that doesn't get eaten, expired food they send it to the pigs, they autoclave it, they basically sterilize it, and then they feed it to these animals and this would have otherwise just gone into a landfill
We could do this like everywhere and this is part of the problem that we have is because of zoning and because of cultural things like we could produce a lot more food in kind of a regional
Fashion and then be much more efficient with it. We could cut it like 50% of our food is wasted right now. So what if we took 10%?
Is that just nationwide or is that really?
It's kind of a global global number, yeah, So what if 10% of that got allocated into cricket and mealworm and different things and we use those to produce a possibly vegan acceptable protein source or it gets used to feed the chickens so that they you know there's just a lot of inefficiency there
But there's also a lot of like cultural change that needs to happen to make some of those things more
This is sort of unrelated, but there was a guy who ate bad Chinese food
It was like leftover Chinese foodUnknown
And to get amputated stuff
Yeah, he his body went septic
He had to get his legs amputated, his feet amputated
The photos are absolutely horrific, it was just some, some leftover food that apparently it was sitting out
Maybe something and bacteria got in it and he ate it and within hours
Afterwards, his body was going septic, like in it's he has these lesions all over his body
Wait till you see this is so crazy
I've never seen anything like this from eating food
I thought if you ate bad food you just get diarrhea and you throw up and need a food
Apparently he got
I mean, I've I've had food poisoning
I'm sure you guys have as well, right?
It's gross, it's it makes you feel terrible
Was it like Botulism?
Did he get Botulism from it or no?
I I can't I don't know you find itUnknown
There's a lot of stories trying to financial pictures
The New York Post one is the best 'cause they have the all the juicy photos 'cause you know how the New York
Yeah, it's classy as it gets and like it's so crazy
Oh now this isn't the same one
This is no, it's Chinese food, it's he
It's very recentUnknown
In New York Post did it come up?
Just Chinese food Google Chinese foodUnknown
Well, there's noodles
Yeah, but just Google leftover
It's our new story bro
It's like leftover Chinese food
Of these stories are that storyUnknown
Not the New York Post one
Oh why would they showing a spaghetti bowl?Unknown
Then I don't thatUnknown
One went to theUnknown
Wrong one, I don't know
It looks like Maine
I don't know
I know I have it on my phone because I sent it to somebodyUnknown
Same thing the New York Post one didn't pop up. It gave me a different story from 2019
I wonder if they they took it down
It's too gnarly
I don't think soUnknown
Like something I have specifically New York Post, but it's not
Oh, there it is
Alright, just try to find 1
But that's not that's not the correct
One well, try the one right right there, try that one
Let's see if it it has the imagesUnknown
And none of the other onesUnknown
Are having the images is the problem?Unknown
I'm kind of
Happy with thatUnknown
I was doing a lot of clicking really fast and I wasn'tUnknown
Finding anything with the images, I'm good
Man is likeUnknown
I can go to images on
Yeah, let's go to imagesUnknown
I'm sure it'll come up
It's just noodles, they're just showing noodles, that's unfortunate
Anyway, second, I found it and it it was a
It was horrific
This guy had like his feet were like a gross multi colored thing and it's all of his skin and it was just from it going septic from bad food
How bad did that smell when he ate it like I mean, how bad does it have?
It might not have smelled bad
I mean, I'm having you had food poisoning
To be bad
It didn't smell bad0:00:05
Patient had a rapidly evolving diffuse reticular purplish rash on the face, not shown
Chest and abdomen, arms and legs, so his whole body was covered in these horrible purple lesions
And barely made it
I mean, it's really, really rough when you see it
And so let's go to the top of it
So like figured out what happened
OK, so the patient had been well until 20 hours before this admission
This is crazy when diffuse abdominal pain and nausea developed after gate, rice, chicken and LogMeIn leftovers from a restaurant meal
Multiple episodes of emesis so the word emesis occurred with vomitus that was either Billy
What are they trying to do to be here?
Billious or red brown?
The abdominal pain and vomiting were followed by the development of chills, generalized weakness, progressively worsening diffuse
My ologists my al, is that right?
Malgus chest pain, shortness of breath, headache, neck stiffness, and blurry vision
Five hours before this admission
Purplish discoloration of the skin developed and a friend took the patient to the emergency department of another hospital for evaluation
Upon arrival, the emergency department of the hospital 4.5 hours before this admission, the patient reported diffuse myalgias. The scale of eight to 10, including indicating most severe pain on examination
Beard pale, anxious, and moderately distressed, he answered questions appropriately and was oriented to person, place, time and situation
OK, blood specimens were obtained. Complete culture content approximately 40 minutes after the patient's arrival
Da da da during 30 minutes Tak Tak E Fina, worsened and labored, breathing hypoxemia
Sionne sisters, a lot of ******* medical terminology here
Supplemental oxygen was administered so he was like fading fast
Resulting in oxygen saturation of 83%. Oxygen was administered through a high flow nasal cannula at the rate of 40 liters per minute. Wow, so this is oh, this is a medical thing. Is a medical journal. It's talking about this
It it never really says they they did cultures on it, but it didn't say what he
Came back with
He smoked 2 packs of cigarettes weekly
That's not a lot smoked marijuana daily, hala, and drank 2 alcoholic beverages of pot approximately 2 times per week
Crazy OK, no more Chinese food
Well, it's not thatUnknown
I think I read of another friendUnknown
I think I read of another friend ate it too, but he didn't get as sickUnknown
He just had like a little stomach ache and this kid went the other way with it
Oh wow, I don't knowUnknown
I think I read that it's not saying thatUnknown
In here IUnknown
Don't think but
Oh wow, I read it initially that dude's got bragging rights
That's all he's got left
Should they cut everything else off?
You know the other guy, the other guy, the guy?
That didn't get
Cut by the guy that also ate it but didn't
Really get sick
Right, you know when he's
Wheeling his friend around
Remember, I eat the same food
Bro stuff are horrible
Horrible joke, so do you think that that there is a future where people can have this sort of?
This, you know, this philosophy of having a plant based diet is like to do the least amount of harm
Now, if you had some sort of a organic back garden diet and you lived off of your garden, that's probably the most karma free, right?
If you just want to eat plant based foods and then you have crickets for your protein
It depends on where you live because
In most of the country you can't grow year round, soUnknown
It gets tricky and I think if we're talking about least harm and one of the things like Rob was starting to say with you know everyone likes to lead with these ethics arguments
I want to do least harm, and so we were going to lead the book with ethics
Thinking was that you have to fully understand the nutritional implications of like pulling meat away from people who really need it, and then you have to understand the environmental argument of like
What monocrop agriculture is and all that kind of stuff to then understand the ethical to to have like an intelligent ethical debate
You can't just say it's
OK, so when we're talking about nutrients and we were talking about the impossible burger and beyond burger and stuff like that
So they don't really claim that it's better for you nutritionally anymore they
Not so much
I mean there you know there's new crazy studies come coming out saying that you should limit your red meat to 0 if you want to live
They imply it
But those aren't
This is going to
Those are going to be exhausting though, 'cause you're going to have to talk to somebody that have read those studies
They're going to stick in your face
Yeah, I have a friend who's overweight who's a vegan who's like to claim that I'm going
To have a heart attack, I'm like bro
Look at you
This is so crazy like you
You can't be healthy eating whatever you're eating is not good
And I think for a healthy, you know 25 year old athlete or whatever they want to be vegan. That's fine as a mom and a dietician. I have a big problem with
Disadvantaged kids being
Meat being pulled away from them as policy for virtue signaling
For sure, but as an athlete, when an athlete is a young, healthy athlete and they're eating a vegan diet, do you think they're leaving something on the table in terms of like the nutrition that they could be getting and the performance that
They could be getting
It seems like it seems like it right?
Like I don't I'm not aware
Of any top of the food chain LeBron James type people that are vegans
You know, like when you look at it elite athlete
You know Canelo Alvarez, like someone, is at the very top of their game
You know, I don't really see any of them that I'm aware of that are vegans
Doesn't mean it's not possible, but I mean, I don't know of any
Who's the best in their field?
That's a vegan
Do you know of any?
Are there any soccer players that are?
I'll hand, I don't
I mean, there's always this
This piece too of could they have been better?
You know, maybe they are riding vegan
Or maybe they could have been better with kind of a mixed diet
You know, it's always a tough one
It does seem like you know, like the the Game Changers movie
Like all the athletes, they kind of detailed in that thing
They everybody went retrograde after they they went vegan like the the strongman guy got injured a bunch and kind of retired like everybody that they had in there
Strongman guys a tough case because that guy is chock full of steroids
Kind of yeah
There's just no if ands or butts about it
I mean, that's a that's a steroid up business
You know when you're when, unless they're testing people on a regular basis and there's there, I'm sure there's some that do get tested when you're dealing with those guys that are just enormous human beings that are lifting the most amount of way possible
A lot of those guys
Around the juice and that can
Paper over a lot of other stuff
It's it's hard to say like what's?
Really going on then, right?
Well and also with these athletes
They're genetically gifted, period, right?
Like they can probably get away with eating a lot of fast food and be
Pretty a lot healthier than me, you know
So I think you know when you're already starting with
Like the ideal specimen of human
And then if they give up plans for or meet for six months, it may not have the same impact as somebody who
Has already damaged guts or an autoimmune disease or as an older person or as a developing kid who needs you know to grow so
There's been some football players that went vegan right that were like elite football players, but didn't one of them just kept getting injured after he went vegan
Yeah well, why would you get it?
Is it lack of protein?
Think like what would I think?
Just globally you are consuming less nutrients and definitely the protein piece is a big deal and then if you aren't recovering the same way like do you track heart rate variability, do you ever?
Do when I wear that whoops route
Yep Yep Yep, so like if
What's a cool insight with HRV?
Is that if you're sleeping well on your your total stress load, your allostatic load is low comparatively
Then you've got more resources to put into recovery, but if you're eating a diet, whether it's junk food or or what have you, that is
Causing some degree of stress that is not providing the fundamental building blocks, then more energy has to be allocated to get you back to square one again
So this is where like optimizing sleep and nutrition and gut health and all these things
Really it is something that if you make money from your physicality, like it behooves one to do that because you want to put
Every bit of recovery you know juice into that process because it gets you back in
You can train harder, train more often, so that's where I could see
Like the soft tissue injuries and stuff like that starting to
Be a problem
But it's it's kind of guesswork
When a football player gets injured because it's kind of an injury sport, it's a sport
There's so much
It's it's you would be really cherry picking if you said
This is why you got injured, right?
So back to this burger thing
So the burger has soybean oil, pea protein, beet juice
And what else is in there?
That's I think those are the main
And then they what kind of malarkey are they doing to glue it all together?
I mean, we saw again like pretty impressive stuff, just with what the person did in the kitchen making the the ham, you know
Well, that would that look nasty honestly
But looked like damn at the
It did look and it looked ham ham like, but the burger looked pretty damn good with the cheese, right?
End, you know?
Yeah him yeah
Top of it
It was looking all
Greasy, yeah, that looked pretty good
So it's soy protein concentrate coconut oil sunflower
Pokémon all is good for you, right is not
Good for you, yeah
OK, so there's something good for you. Ingredient #2 is good for
You sunflower oil potato protein
Is that good?
I don't eat
You need to eat 10 potatoes to get the protein that you can get in 4 ounces of beef
And and just really quick on that, what do you need to do so if they're marketing this as like a sustainability feature?
How much energy goes into?
Raising a potato it, you know
Bunch of potatoes
Then you process them
Extract the protein out so it can be put into that
This is where you know, like the what they call a life cycle analysis and they did do that between like white oak pastures and and the impossible burger and white oak pastures ended up having a lower carbon footprint
And again, that's not the whole story, but there there's
Other pieces to it, but
I'm sorry white oak pastures in comparison to two
Beyond burger and impossible burger
So this is compared to factories or
Their their their burger, the the process of creating
From the ground
Yeah, a life cycle is like a cradle to grave study where it's the whole
So they're following all the plants that can be converted into seed oils and all the all the jazz
That I mean
There's probably limitations on how far back in the supply
I know that they didn't go into some of the mined minerals that they need for
You know all the vitamins and minerals you know, like they didn't go that far
But pretty far
And what was the result?
The white oak pastures ended up being net carbon negative, so it's pulling more out of the environment than what it's putting in throughout their whole process
And this includes the composting and the the inclusion of like their chicken and pork like
It's the whole operation
Now is this pound for pound like?
How do they do this?
Is it I believe so
It was literally like a pound per pound comparison, yeah?
A pound for pound from a regenerative farm, pound for pound for beef and chicken and whatever they grow
Whatever animal based protein versus this plant based stuff that there's more carbon being emitted from the plant based stuff and the production of and it's worse for the environment
Yeah, and in funny it it was kind of weird, but I think it was literally the same number but the opposite direction
It was like you had to eat 1 white oak pastures burger to nullify the carbon footprint of 1 impossible burger like it was like 4.6 or something like that. Yeah yeah, yeah
I think it's yeah 3.5 or something like that, so it's a it's a grass fed beef farm in Georgia
So in terms of harm to the environment, that's so that, at least from a regenerative farm, a regenerative farm like white oak pastures
And how do white oak pastures run their thing?
They run it like polyface farms and like that kind of deal
Very simple yeah yeah
Yeah, now we were talking earlier about sustainability, like the ability or scalability, rather the ability to do that for the entire country
Is that really possible?
Yeah, so I I consulted some of the top experts in this area when I wrote the book and we went through the numbers and if we
If we look at the underutilized grassland that we already have, so there's a lot of like BLM land or Forest Service land that's just not being grazed
There's farmers being paid through the CRP program to actually leave their fields fallow
So if we if we
Look at regenerative agriculture as actually being way more efficient than
Typical grazing and I put that at 30% better, but most farmers will tell you I have four times
You know more animals on my property because my soil is so fertile and the grass is so healthy
So I did go through the numbers for the US and it does look like we have
The land to finish 'cause remember all cattle start on grass so it's really just those last three months that we're looking to finish where we're looking to take them
It takes longer, but it's the three months that would be in a feed lot
To then finish them on
Grass, but to finish them on grass
It would take longer than three months, but but we're not looking at the entire life of the cow is not spent in a feed lot
OK, but when you're saying feed lot, are you saying when you are they feeding them hey are they feeding the grass or they feeding them?
Grain, so add a feed lot
They're getting like a ration of corn of mashed up
Right, you know corn stalks from the ethanol industry, so they're getting like like food scraps that we can't
And this is the fatten them up
But what about pure grass fed, which is supposed to be supposed to be the most healthy, correct?
Is that debatable?
It yeah it is actually
This is one of the things that gets us in a lot of trouble
Like we, we started with a bunch of assumptions and one of the assumptions was that
Pastured meat is nutritionally superior to conventional meat and we
I mean we
We turned over every study that you could find in this thing and what what you find is that pastured meat has a little bit more Omega threes than conventional meat
But if you're looking at just the Omega threes, you need to eat like 8 pounds of meat to get as much Omega threes as what you get out of, like 3 ounces of salmon
So it's not the place to look for that and
Pastured dairy is far more nutritious than conventional dairy wild caught
Seafood is far more nutritious
Eggs are far, far more nutritious
But it's this weird thing like it would have been so nice if just pastured meat was like
Nutritionally superior, we could have like
Had this, you know, soup to nuts story on this thing
We even hired an independent researcher person with a PhD in nutritional biochemistry and we just said hey do a compare and contrast of conventional meat and grass fed meat
We want to know their nutritional profile
We didn't give this person any of our information and they arrived at exactly the same thing
But we have people really
Angry at us
But they did
At the end of the day, the crazy thing is even when you're putting things like corn stalks and weird things like that into cows, they make they're so good at upcycling nutrients that meat is just ruminant meat is super, super nutritious, and I think that the ethical argument for grass finishing is strong
I think the environmental
Argument is strong
There may be a case for like bioaccumulation like things like like phosphate and stuff like that
I looked at those two
But that's separate from it and and I don't think it's as compelling a a thing is what most people would think, but just nutritionally like vitamins, minerals, you know, proteins, essential fats, essential amino acids
There's just not that big of a difference
Why is it look so different 'cause it's a darker red meat and I would assume?
It's definitely leaner
So finishing on corn marbelize, is it?
So that's the only difference in terms of the color
It's just a lean thing
Yeah so yeah
Because I was assuming it was like a nutrient density thing
Well, it's kind of nutrient dense because there's more of the actual meat versus fat for sure
There is a benefit to the fat from me as well
Yeah, that's a nutrient too
So there is probably some benefit to a fatty piece of meat that is grain finished
Yeah, I mean it has more calories, so it just depends on what your goals are, but it's
Versus even grass, right?
It's not bad, so the Omega threes is the only big issue, but you really should get that from salmon
Anyway, yeah, I mean, it's like saying an organic carrot has three times the protein
No one is eating carrots for protein
Right, got it?
Got it so
So if we were doing that and you're trying to feed the entire country, how much more of an impact does the methane from the cows burping, and how much more of an impact is it in terms of the amount of animals that you have to move around in terms of transportation and the fossil fuels that are emitted through that?
So ironically, I'm going to Brazil next month to speak at a cattle conference, and they are actually having to go more towards feedlots because they're getting so much pressure to reduce their carbon emissions
And so when you finish a cow on a feed lot, it's faster, and so the cow is not alive as long
And so they're emitting less methane, so it's actually
This one company, it's actually they're being pressured to go the feed lot route
And and this is that carbon tunnelvision where they're missing all the other
Externalities that could be beneficial around the pasture process, like you can reverse desertification
The ground holds more water
It doesn't create as much of a heat footprint
You get carbon sequestration
You have all the other ecosystem benefits
But this is where like this kind of neurotic focus on just greenhouse gas emissions
Absent this bigger picture, you start making dumb decisions and we're making decisions at a global food policy level that are are potentially going to be really injurious, like what they're doing in that that process then, and I think
They're looking just at the
The emissions are coming from the animals in that case, but then what about all of the infrastructure that's necessary to get the grains to feed to the animals?
And what's going on with that?
And I think when we do these full lifecycle analysis like what we do with the white oak farms
Usually the pastured process wins
But you have to be willing to accept that
That is part all that greenhouse gas emissions is part of a cycle
That stuff that's in the atmosphere today is going to be part of a plant at some point, and you know then part of an animal and and on and on
Now when you're talking about the amount of cows that you would need to feed the entire country, like what kind of a quantity of meat are we talking about, per capita or per person?
So right now, Americans eat about 2 ounces of beef per person per day and about twice that much chicken
So we're really not eating like too much meat
Everyone thinks that Americans are sitting down to a tomahawk steak every night, and it's just not true
You know we're going to get our protein from different sources, so I'm not saying we all need to be carnivores
And you know then you have this other dilemma of the carrying capacity of earth for humans, which gets really dicey when you even start talking about that
So we we don't talk about that, but you know, do you want healthy humans or do you want human feed to just have the largest number of humans possible?
Right, right so 2 ounces of beef a day does not sound
Like a lot
So, but if you want people specifically to live on this diet like I'm living on like if that
If this is something that people adopt now you're talking about many times more
How much is is that sustainable?
That seems like no
I don't know, like I I don't know where that carrying capacity pops in and I don't know it
It's interesting, you know how much of that could be supplemented with seafood
How much of that gets out?
Like if we start integrating like the pork and the chicken and making that whole bio dynamic and not as as impactful
How much of that could be offloaded into like?
Insect proteins like
But if everybody ate like Sean
Baker we'd be ******
Probably would be some problems
Probably some problems
Well, I mean
We also we're exporting all the organ meats to other countries
We're not doing a very good job of of eating those
And there's a
There's a flipside to this
Is that as as a culture we're super unhealthy
So like there was a Congressional Budget Office
Study back in like 2005 that was suggesting that by like 20 thirty 2035 the US is bankrupt from diabesity related costs like we will we have more costs dealing with diabetes than what we?
We have GDP and I don't know what kovid is done to that whole projection and and whatnot, but it
Just diabetes alone and this isn't even looking at like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and all these other metabolically driven diseases
And if there's one thing that although I guess it's still controversial, but there's, there's one thing that there's at least a little bit of synergy out in the world
People like Layne, Norton and and whatnot kind of sign off on this
If people under eat protein, they tend to overeat calories beyond that
Looks like you're working
Yeah, I saw you
And so whether you eat higher carb or lower carb, if people eat adequate protein, they tend to not overeat
The other stuff if you under eat protein then you tend to overeat
All the other things and this is probably the
The big driver of of this illness so
What do we do about addressing the health and health care issue in all this, you know, like in some ways we can't
Not we can't afford not to address this in some effective way because we have to figure out like a
A global public health food policy that's going to allow people to spontaneously reduce calorie intake, or
We we end up with this kind of global control of the food system and you go to buy meat and it's you know it's like a social credit score thing
It's like, sorry comrade, you've already got your protein allowance for the month
Yeah, and then I looked into also the
So it's time to debug, yeah?
The carbon footprint of diabetes
Oh yeah, with all the medical tubing and
So you've got
Amputations, you've got dialysis, all the plastics involved in dialysis
I mean so, but that shouldn't that be factored into?
Junk food, you know?
If we're if we're complaining about like methane from
I guess it has to be if how many people are gonna bankrupt the country from diabetes
I mean if that's real
I I had no idea that I thought diabetes was fairly rare
OK, here the staggering cost of diabetes2.3 times greater healthcare costs for Americans with diabetes $327 billion. The annual annual cost of diagnosed diabetes in America more than 34 million Americans have diabetes. Holy ****
And that's just diagnosed, right?'cause there's so many more people on their way
More than 88 million have prediabetes
Oh, there we go
Food, so you're almost at half the population
That's either pre or diabetic
That is, but
It's a third essentially, but that's still a lot of ******* people
One in three is either diabetic or pre diabetic
That's nuts. What if we found out that the obesity rate in America was like 40% right? Wasn't it something like that?
If you add overweight and obese at 70%
Wow, see that is something that you know
Obviously this is anecdotal, but you know, Jordan Jordan Peterson was one of the first guys that I knew that got on that carnivore diet and he lost 40 something pounds
He looks amazing and it's just like he's completely slim and lean and he just eats nothing with steak like
There's something about eating meat where you get satisfied easier
When I'm eating meat by itself
I'll you know, I'll eat a steak and I'm fully satisfied, but if you give me a steak and pasta, I will eat
I will eat that steak, and then I'll eat the **** out of that pasta and I'm somehow another still hungry
I see I keep digging in there wherever it was steak
It was another steak
There I'd stop and I'd, you know I'd put it in the fridge
But I can't stop
Eating when it's pasta or bread?
Yeah that buffet
Effect is is interesting where if we get more food
Yes, and eat more more things
When I was on the show last time, we looked at that Adam Rickman, man versus food and he did this kitchen sink sundae challenge
I think we watched this this thing, but he had to eat at 8 pound ice cream sundae and he's motoring through this thing he gets maybe 15 minutes into it and then he just starts visibly turning green
And like starts gagging
And he's not going to make it
And he asked the the waitress in this place to get him a a giant plate of salty crunchy French fries and he would eat a couple of French fries and then a little bit of ice cream and a little bit of French fries
But because he was able to go back and forth and change the palette experience, his brain didn't tell him to stop
So the only way he would have thrown up, he would have failed
Eating that ice cream sundae without eating like 2000 calories of
French fries, which is just crazy, it's
Yeah yeah, but there he
Weird weird tricks
You have to play in your brain
Oh yeah, here we go
Is yeah, look at him
He looks so much different now since he doesn't do that show anymore
He's all like normal size
Like that guy must have been killing himself
I mean just killing himself doing that show8 pounds of ice cream is absolutely nuts
That is so
Bad for you
And it's orange Sherbert at the bottom
I mean good God
No, it's good right now he's getting after it
Yeah, so your body has this weird thing
If you just eat protein like when I eat like steak and eggs in the morning, I'm very
Satisfied, yeah, so we're in this horrible place where people are saying, but it's unsustainable
So that's why we
Well, I think we've proved it is
Well, so you have to you have
To start with, what is the ideal diet and how can we produce that in a sustainable way?
But all the other groups are saying look at our broken AG system
What's the most sustainable food and how can we convert that into human feed?
Well, they're not even just doing that
It seems like they're playing funny games with the numbers
Like where they are
They're not being honest about the environmental impact
They're not being honest about the nutritional footprint
They're not being honest
About any of these
Things they just want this ideology promoted, which is that meat is bad for the environment
Meat is bad for the
I mean I see that everywhere and then people say it on Twitter
They say it's like it's just this like cold statement, they just say
Meat is bad for the environment, like what?
Kind of meat like what are you saying in what way?
Like yeah, is are you saying like those pig farms where they leave lakes of sewage?
Yep, I'm with you
That's bad for the environment when they have these horrific factory farm conditions where they're all packed in next to each other and they ship through the bottom of their cage'cause it's a great
And it goes into this this big swampy sort of lake of sewage
Yeah, that's terrible, but if you're talking about like what Joel Salatin does
No, my thing is though
You're not going to get everybody to listen right?
We haven't had anybody listen like like and I used to work at NPR
When people say that
I have friends there they want to
Touch this story
Yeah, I know people at New York Times they wouldn't
That's a thing, right?
Well, Netflix was super interested in her in the film
They flew me out
And got like right to the 11th hour, 59th minute and then somebody was like, oh **** like we can't. We can't sign off on this so
Meanwhile they have the most wacky documentaries that are so full of **** on so many different things right on UFOs and Bigfoot
And ******* you know, the origins of currency
Netflix got some wacky **** so does iTunes
I went to the other day I was at home
I had a rare day off so I just went through the documentary section of iTunes for a goof or Apple TV
And it's like what kind of ******* ********* are you people selling?
And you won't sell this
It's my what I was going to say though
Is like you're not going to
There's certain people that are just
Headline readers, and that is a headline reader statement that meat is bad for the environment
This is a thing, it's
It aligns so perfectly with so many other narratives today too, so it's just all
Also, that are just headlines, you know
This really weird tendency to ignore facts that are contrary to what you've already espoused and believed in, and this is one of them
And once you've already said publicly multiple times, meat is bad for the environment and animal based diet is bad
Plant based diets are the only diet that reverses heart disease
They like to say that one
Yeah, so like
I'm in a suburb outside of Boston and everyone
The more environmentally conscious, right, they're educated
It's a mess
And of course
Of course they don't eat meat
None of them eat like or they're cutting down, or they're flexitarian
Not other people near you, and they're all tying
They're all exhausted
Yeah, they all look like **** That's what's weird
I mean obviously not in some of them look great this you're going to run into that vegan soul jacked so bro, I'm a vegan
I'm ******* hell to **** likeUnknown
Touché you're one of the rare ones
You're a ******* Unicorn pal
But it is tough because it's such a airtight
Beautiful story, you know
If if you don't eat meat you'll live forever
You'll be skinny
That's heart disease, yeah?
You'll be ethically superior
You're saving the planet, I mean sign me up, it sounds great
The ethnicity, superior parts people love that one people huff that one'cause the social media social media is just
It's such a great place to espouse your virtue, right?
You know that if you can, you put that little plant thing next to your your bio and then put your pronouns
Underneath that, you're
Off and running
Nice, you got a solid pro, you know
Solid bio there
And then what we're?
Suggesting we don't even have like a solid endpoint other than
Mainly we we make the recommendation that
As to the greatest degree possible, decentralized the food production system and depending on where we
How so when you say that what?
Do you mean by that?
So people in Nebraska should probably be doing things different than people even in Texas?
And and I'm not in that crew where people get all bent out of shape that lake and avocado is going from Mexico to Canada during the winter
Like I don't care about that
I do think that
More of our food should probably be eaten
If we produce more food locally where we have much more efficiencies generally, and then a lot of these environmental problems like the the lakes of like steaming pig **** and stuff like that should just be worked back into the farm we we shouldn't be poisoning waterways
This would stop, why?
They shouldn't be growing pigs that way
The pig should be integrated into the whole system the way that we did about 100 years ago
But don't you need a vast swath of land to accomplish something like that?
Not necessarily because you, you don't need to always do mega scale and it
This is some of the stuff that we're going to have to
Come to terms with also
So like in the UK, there was an experiment where they they put in hedgerows, around the the regular
You know conventional farms that they had but the hedgerows allowed
For these predatory birds and and insects to have somewhere to hang out and then they would get in and and eat the the the bugs that would you know cause problems with the you know like the weed or the
Corn or whatever
So there was a decrease in the total amount of harvest that they had because some of the farm was allocated these hedgerows
But then the amount of insecticides and herbicides and whatnot that they had to use were dramatically decreased
Ah, I see
So we have to start putting what our values are like
Markets are really good at optimizing things, but we're not
We're not telling it currently what we've asked it to optimize is make as much cheap food as possible, and we've crushed that
Like we, we've we've crushed it. I think it was 2006, 2007 became the first year somewhere around there that more humans started dying from
And over eating than under eating and and infectious disease like chronic disease outstripped infectious disease and and lack of food as the main cause of
Death that's interesting 2007
So somewhere, somewhere around that point, nobody you know
It's the tipping point
But a big
Of a tipping point, but it's a really important point in history
But we crushed that imperative
We produce huge amounts of calories, but now it's to the point that people are so sick that we're crippling our health care system and people are unhappy and
Joe Rogan'cause what I was getting at in terms of sustainability is that if you have a pig farm that is a factory farm pig farm, you're raising thousands of pigs on a relatively small footprint you
What you need is more smaller farms with some some pigs, and you need people to you need not 5 corporations to own the supply chain
But this is a bigger problem
What I'm saying is like if you run a pig farm and you only have X amount of acres and you have thousands of pigs on that pig farm, that's the only way you're going to be able to raise the same amount of pigs on that farm
You're gonna have to bring in food to them
You have to keep them contained
You fatten them up and then you kill them and you have this giant lake of their their their feces
This is what is the only thing that you kind of can do to have that kind of yield on a small piece of land. Relatively small, like you have 100 acres and you have 10,000 pigs in these******* containment facilities. You're not going to recreate that in 100 acres with like the Joel Salatin method, correct? Like if you if you're going to do regenerative farming, you're going to need some land
You need some land, but you're also going to need to have a different supply chain
You're going to need to sell directly to consumers and not meat as a commodity
But what about meat?
As a commodity, to place like Burger King or Jack in the box, or what?
Have you do that?
I mean that that's still even happens too
Joel Joel sells to Chipotle
Chipotle is a pretty good source, like Chipotle has
I mean, when you get like a a good beef burrito, they're a beef bowl
Good, I mean in a scenario like that then I don't know how Joel handles his
But if you're selling to McDonald's, then McDonald's gets its meat from more regional source versus like this consolidated
I would source the way that happens now
Do you anticipate a time where they'll be able to?
I mean, I know there are doing factory cloned meat now
Do you think that that will be scalable?
No, like the short answer is no because it's so expensive to do it like Pete
But for now, like it used to be a really expensive to get a cell phone, but now they're
Fairly cheap, it it's true and and I'm a huge fan of Moore's law
It's a really good point, but the the thing that kind of gets missed in this is that it's so expensive to run a lab like I actually did tissue culture and you have to take all the products of industrial farming
Pull that out, process it, and then you know I've got protein and carbs and fat and these these you know jars that I put into this VAT and then inoculate it with meat cells and have to keep it the right temperature or the right humidity
I have to
Keep pathogens off it
Keep pathogens off of it, so I've got to use antibiotics that there was actually been
A couple of good business pieces like Forbes and stuff like that
Looking at these things and and some smart systems engineers looking at this and they're like there's just no way you're going to scale this, you know, and people just
They don't realize like the grasslands in the United States or even in like Eurasia and
Whatnot, they're just
Enormous and we have these huge tracts of land
Sunlight, grass, animals it
It's a really efficient system versus again trying to pull that all under
You know a roof like this and try to grow meat at scale
If you're on like a spaceship or something, you have a closed loop deal like I could see something like that working, but as long as we have the sun and grasslands and and whatnot, there's still
A really efficient piece of that now correct me if I'm wrong on this, but as marijuana has become more legalized, people have gone outside frequently to to produce it where they can because it's just cheaper like the infrastructure of that versus like a greenhouse scenario is tends to be pretty pretty economically viable, so I think you run into those similar situations with
The lab grown meat and and the kind of butting up against the scale piece
You'd have to talk to a real marijuana farmer, but I I think there's some questions about
You know quality and how you grow it in the soil
You know, like the difference between the hydroponic versus growing it outside
What other pieces of the puzzle are missing in terms of?
Like if we're if we're looking at beef and nutrients, we're looking at the carbon footprint
We're looking at all these different things in terms of like
Like a viable and sustainable food source, what other pieces are we missing?
In this discussion
Well, I mean one thing I was going to bring up is just with white oak pastures and the impact he's had on jobs and this town like he's in the poorest
County in the country
And when, as we've lost in South Western Georgia
Where is that?
And to see what he has done on this property is incredible
And he sells direct to consumers and so he can get a good margin
When he sells direct to consumers
Does he have like a like a farmers market type deal where they come to him?
He ships so he does it online
So you could just like buy a side of beef, a half a cow you could visit by the pounds, cuts, steaks
Cuts, yeah, but they also have restaurants that they supply too, but
What the beauty of of that and also
You know some of the stuff that Wendell Berry talks about
I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but he's a
There's a great documentary they did on him called look and see and he's an agrarian
Thought leader and he just talks
About how you know everyone from small town, you haven't really made it in the US until you've left your small town and nobody is like coming back and actually working in their small town and loving the land that they're from and making sure that that gigantic, nasty polluting pig farm doesn't happen
So that's part of it
But as we've lost all these small farms, small town America has just completely dried up
And now it's just big box everything
And so if we're able to sort of dismantle these like
For meat companies that control 80% of our meat
And somehow get it back to a more balanced system where there's more regional control over the food systems you're going to have more healthy
This gets out in the weeds a little bit, but when people talk about AI supplanting jobs, it's creative jobs that are going to be the last things that go like even doctoring and lawyering, it is so
Kind of scripted and wrote that they you know, they predict that though being a doctor and being a lawyer could be replaced by by AI stuff in the not too distant future, but
This process of regenerative farming is a really creative endeavor like your problem solving constantly and
People have a tendency to relegate these farmers as just kind of look like inbred idiots, and they're not that smart like there's an enormous amount of information that they have to learn about their local situation and what they're doing
And again constant problem solving, so this could be one of these things that revitalizes Middle America and is a
Really long term, you know job and employment and economic engine is having people do more of this type of work
Like there was a time when more people worked in agrarian settings and then we shifted into urban centers, and maybe there's a case to be made that more people need to shift back into a a quasi agrarian setting both for the employment but also for like the quality of life and the production about food
And different things like that
Yeah, and I was just going to add two
You know the vegan dialogue works really well for like Norwegian billionaires and Bill Gates
And people that can afford it, and they've got a Whole Foods nearby where they can get their goji berries and coconut oil and all those things
But for the majority of people they want me
They want to be able to eat it, and now we've got even science so corrupted that
People are trying to pull it away from people and so it's
When you look at the nutritional ramifications of what happens when people have less animal source foods
It's not, it's it's a social justice issue
It's an equity of food equity problem
What is what was the motivation for demonising me?
Other than I mean we know about the the studies that were done, that the sugar industry funded that demonize saturated fat which is really when you know about those studies, I, I believe was in 1960s, right?
Where they were saying that saturated fat was the cause of all this heart disease and they were trying to take the blame off of sugar
They they only bribed these guys with like $50,000, which is crazy because those findings. So this is pre Internet obviously
That swept through the whole country and everybody terrified of saturated fat and people started drinking low fat milk and low fat
This and low fat, fat and
Everybody got fatter. It's it's really wild. If you look at the difference in like people that lived in 1960s and 1970s
For people today like you've seen, all those photos of people on the beach from the 1970s versus people today. It's crazy, the difference and some of that has to be attributable to diet. So with
When we were saying science has been corrupted like what what happened?
What's the motivation if they know this?
We know, I know this, like I'm I'm not an expert
How the **** do I know this that I would think that people study food science know this too and they would want to get that word out like hey this is not real like that's not what the problem is
Not saturated fat
The problem is not cholesterol
In fact cholesterol is like the building blocks
For a lot of hormones, and it's very important to you know cellular development, right?
Yeah, I mean
Bill Melinda Gates Foundation are one of the from what I understand or one of the big donors to this global burden of disease
So do you think it's a financial incentive?
There's a I mean who benefits from meat being bad?
Big oil, because now it's not an industrial problem, it's a consumers problem, right?
Just like recycling like put it on the consumer
It's not the company making the plastic bottles, it's the consumer right?
So we've got big oil benefits
The Ultra processed food industry benefits not only because they're the ones making this junk, but also it takes the blame off
All the cereals and pasta meals and all that stuff and
Puts it on meat
So they're winning
It it in the book and I I always forget what's in the book and what's in the film
But you dug into like the history of it
Interestingly, like 7th Day Adventists, vegetarianism
They they kind of founded the dietetics profession, so it had a very strong vegetarian underpinning to it because the the religious you know
Meanings of the 7th Day Adventists, so
They founded dietetics
So a religion founded nursing
Well, you know, like Loma Linda University
So I mean, they're they're
They're operating within science, but it definitely had this
Vegetarian orientation to it?
And So what? Why has there in the cattle industry is huge? The beef industry is huge. There's 95% of the planet. Eats meat, right? Isn't it something high like that?
Yeah, but the
The margins are really small though, because meat is such a commodity
It's like steak is steak is steak, but beyond burger they can
Their margins are amazing
They're new, I like
Is this an UN organization thing like did the the the beef people do they not know the existential threat to their existence?
Really, it's weird, it's weird
Yeah, they're out there shoveling **** and oblivious
Well, because they're not part of the coastal dialogue
Ah, and I
That's anti meat
Some of it too is most of the players that own the meat production
They they they own like the the grain
You know the corn and and everything it because it's all consolidated, so they're like
Well, maybe we'll lose a little bit there, but we'll make
It up here and and they're major investors in the plant based meat as well
The meat, the large meat Packers
Just for money
Diversify, why not?
You're going to win either way
So when you wrote this book
Did you think that there was going to be major pushback?
Did you think that you know you'd basically shored up all your arguments with with data and solid discussion?
I thought there was going to be more pushback from like the vegan side of the house and there hasn't been a huge amount
And I we did
We we tried to
We really even in the point you know like is pastured meat more nutritionally superior to
We really like like we, we had a discussion I'm like do we just lie about this?
Because it would be great
Then, like everything is consistent but
One I think the ethics are dodgy there and then two
It's a, you know
One vegan doctor goes through our work and he looks at and he's like no, there's a difference there
And if you can point out one glaring error like that, then it calls into question everything else
So we really like whether it hurt or not
We tried to be as honest with this stuff as as we could and what we have noticed is that
We kind of uniformly **** everybody off
Like almost nobody comes away reading that book and they feel just super happy and invigorated because it it it it
It filled up the buckets of, like their preconceived notions like if you were really, really, really excited about regenerative AG, we we
We sing the praises of that, but also we're not
We're kind of
It's not black and white
It's not totally black and white
It doesn't have to
Yeah, like we make the case that like there's all these other foods that could be nutrient upcycled
That doesn't really fit into like the grass Fed model so
Why don't we take advantage of that?
So it it's a
It's been interesting like the areas that we've had some pushback in
The most aggressive pushback is actually been the the really meet elitist kind of pastured meat scene because there are people out there that say it should be grass fed meat or nothing and it's like well that's interesting
They're not understanding the nutritional importance and how that dialogue, grass fed or nothing ends up with New York City schools going vegan
Right, the grass fed or nothing thing that sort of
That the ideology is that is that oriented in like a nutrition standpoint, like why do they?
Is there a nature thing?
An environmentalist and ethical thing
Yeah, and so they cannot tolerate the idea
That protein period is important
We don't have enough regenerative meat to feed everybody
We've got kids who, if they just got enough meat
In a disadvantaged situation, they actually might have a leg
Up so we should just be feeding them the meat that's available right now instead of waiting for the whole world to go grass fed
Who's responsible for making meatless Monday and and no meat Friday in these school systems?
So meatless Monday is partially funded by Beyond Burger
And Johns Hopkins, which is a very anti meat
Now why are they anti meat?
I don't know if they have some kind
Of religious background
I mean, Harvard is also
Walter Willett is very anti meat and he's funded by Barila
It's because anti anti meat equals woke right like
Most a lot of it, yes
It's part of part of what?
The ideology is today
And then the vegan Fridays is Mayor Adams Mayor Eric Adams
I actually have a public letter on that, so I started an organization called the Global Food Justice Alliance where I'm trying to advocate for
The inclusion of animal source foods for people, and I have a public letter out to Mayor Adams on all the points
Why this is a horrible idea
Do you know he's not really vegan?
He has been questioned right about like
Spent pot eating fish
And he says I have a plant based life
Whenever he is questioned and he's like I want to get into the new ones and the vegan Friday thing is just I have a photograph actually that I sent over in the drop box of what the vegan Friday lunch looks like the burrito
Oh, I see
It's so sad looking oh so sad looking
School lunch looks
Like **** already, right?
But taking meat away and and if you think about the context for these kids in New York, right?
There if you
Tell them meat is bad, they're just going to go to subway and get a a sandwich without meat on it
It's not like they're going to get
A tofu bowl somewhere
And so you know, the top kid foods that kids love it
Mac and cheese, burgers, pizza
And chicken Nuggets
And I would argue
The meat part of those is the best part, and so if you tell these kids meat is bad
Then they're just going to
Pull the meat parts out and just eat the fries instead and the
Coke when when a child is growing, do they have different needs per kilogram in terms of like the amount of protein that they need?
Yes, and they really. We have major problems even in developed countries. In the US with iron deficiency, which is one of the major things you need for growth for your brain and for physical growth
So the biggest pushback that you guys got was from the agriculture or from the grass fed people
Kind of the
But what you would call the meat elitist?
We had lots of people in the pastured scene that were very gracious towards the book and thankful and everything
But there there's kind of a weird cross section of like the health influencers that say grass fed or nothing and then also kind of the
Basing that on 'cause I've said that, I've said that because I read it 'cause I read it that it was hiring essential fatty acids is better for you
Yeah, so they don't like it when I say that, because then that takes part of their argument away
It's an emotional decision
It's not a logical decision
I've said that I'm probably one of the people that that like released that like syphilis on a college campus, and then I did something crazy and they really thoroughly got in and vetted the science
You probably told me
And it was like it
It's not that simple like there's great ethical considerations for it
They're really, really sound environmental reasons
But when you just
But up against just that nutrition piece, it it's just not the same compelling story on meat by itself
Again, like the dairy eggs seafood, huge differences there, but just not the same
With me and there's a lot of very large family foundations that are
Funding a lot of this grass fed stuff and they it's a very progressive
Platform that they're taking, and so to say that meat is healthy, period
It's all of a sudden I'm on the right and and like not aligning with their politics and this should be a bipartisan I
I am totally apolitical on all this stuff, but I'm immediately tagged as
A troublemaker if I say the meat is healthy
So many problems with that in this country where people get so dogmatic and they're so connected to their ideology that they they don't even question anything that goes outside of it
And this sort of healthy questioning and just reasoning and logic and just looking at data and looking at information and challenging your own personal assumptions
It's so rare
It's so rare
I mean, maybe you get one or two percent of the people
I don't know what the numbers are
Who like look at their diet and look at their life and then look
At things like this and read a book like that and go hey
Maybe I should try this, like maybe I'm like too rigid with this
This philosophy that I've adopted that plant based is the only thing that's good for the heart and protects the environment
And you want to be a good person
That's the way to go
You know it's it's just so rare
Most people they get something in their head and they just stick with that
And then there
Echo Chamber that they exist in that that reinforces and supports that, and that's all they ever talk about
Yeah, and there's a
I mean there's a lot of very large
Interests that are pushing the plant based narrative and then they have this grassroots army of ethical
Cheerleaders that are just backing them up for free and then on our end
It's so complicated to be able to talk about the environmental piece like we have health influencers that understand the nutrition piece, but they can't
Really articulate all the environment and then you throw ethics in there and then environmental people don't fully appreciate the nutritional pieces that meat is good, period
And so you end up with nobody really advocating for me
And also there's no money in
Advocating for me
It just it just creates the headache
They've just made that idea, so it's so prevalent that meat is bad for you
Meat is bad for your heart, high cholesterol, bad for the environment
You're a bad person
That's why we call the book sacred
Cow, because it's just this
Unquestioned truth that cows are bad
And where's the documentary?
It's on Amazon only on Amazon
It's on iTunes and like all those like video on demand type things I couldn't even give it to Netflix
They wouldn't take it really
They probably have some funky deal with like some vegan programming
You know it's worth mentioning the folks that public we were turned down from every single publisher
No would take this book
So, so I'm like, uh, I'm I'm not a JK Rowling, but my books have done really well
I'm a, you know, more than a million copies sold of my books and everything like
I should be able to get a book deal kind of any time I want to do it, and nobody would sign off on this
And then the folks who did were the the folks that publish of
Publishers of the
The China study
They felt yeah, really, and they happen to also be a Steven Koonin publisher too like they there
It's a vegan publisher
We're diversifying, sort of like the meat
Business I think they're diversifying, but they also like they're pretty ethically driven
And even if in their team there were folks that were like I have some real reservations about this, but this is a story that at
Least needs to be told
What was the rejection when you guys got rejected?
It was always a different answer from like that's when you know it's not really your fault, but like it was a different reason like I think that this is already been told
I think that this is too complicated
I think that this isn't going to sell
And then and then the weird thing is probably just COVID, but we would have made the New York Times list well, if the New York Times wanted to put us on the list
The first week we sold 7000 copies, but Amazon only shipped 2000
Well, we we we sold out the day of release and we were all over them and and this was my third book
My other books have done very well so there was something really really
So I think they were holding it back
Are you guys wearing tinfoil hats?
It kind of seems like it
Right now what's going on?
I mean, we really thought that this was
A slam dunk, yeah?
Four years of work
Well, let's see what we can do today
Let's pump this ************ up
It won't hurt
Well thank you guys for coming in here and your oh and so the film is there a trailer Jamie let's end with the trailer
And so everybody, let's let everybody know this book is available
You can get it right now
The case for better meet Diana Rogers and Rob Wolf right there
And here's the here's the trailer we'll leave you with this
And thank you, everybody, thank you, Rob
Tell everybody how they can find you on social media
Robwolf.com you can find all my stuff from there
I am at sustainable dish and then the global Food justice alliance as well
Awesome, thank you guys
Thank you very much
I really appreciate it
Play this Jamie
There's a debate out there about whether or not
We should be eating meatUnknown
Red meat is now worse for us in our minds than fat ever could have been, because there are so many more reasons to avoid red meat, not only for your health but also now for the goodness of others, including not killing animalsUnknown
And for the good of the planet
How you doing?
You can't blame people for being confusedUnknown
They're trying to make really important moral and ethical decisions about what they should eat and how they should liveUnknown
It's easy to fall for extreme simple answersUnknown
In the majority of meat produced in this country is under such abhorrent conditionsUnknown
We both areUnknown
Making reactions to the same evil if you willUnknown
Just different choices of how to do it
But what if we're arguing about the wrong thing?
You look at the Midwest now in the United States
It's corn and soy and corn and soy and more corn
This massive amount of monoculture is having devastating effects on the environment
Used to be great biodiversity is gone
The agricultural revolution has been transitioned into the processed food revolution
If you want to fatten up your animals, you put
In a pen where they can't run around and get physical activity and you feed them lots of grain, humans are like that too
What if the very animals were fighting about are a key piece of fixing what's broken?
The animals are going to
Die and your only choice
Now is to do it
Well, that is the only
Are we going to be the death that's killing everything or are we going to be the death that's part of the cycle of life that actually makes life stronger?
Those are really our only optionsUnknown