1784 Diana Rodgers & Robb Wolf

The Joe Rogan Experience.

Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by Night, all day.

Joe Rogan

Hello folks

Good to see

Robb Wolf

Good to see you

Thanks for

Coming, I'm glad we didn't make it snow

Again, in Texas, it's close

Joe Rogan

You almost did

I mean it can snow, it might

Oh, today it's very possible 'cause it was drizzling when I left the house and it was 30 degrees so with

Is not supposed to happen, it's supposed

Robb Wolf

To be snow, hopefully it won't be the snow

Apocalypse Part 2

Joe Rogan

Yeah, last time you were supposed to come, it became a complete disaster, but it was fun

It was fun to watch people slide around and and know that this city has zero infrastructure in terms of like dealing with snow

It's it's kind of 'cause I grew up in

In Massachusetts, where it's you know they know how to handle snow out here, they're they're baffled

Robb Wolf

Do you want to?

She got to tell him what happened with you

Well, well so

Diana Rodgers

My flight from my I'm from Boston and my flight from Houston to Austin was cancelled so I got the last SUV

You don't know how much I wanted to be on your show. I got the last SUV, drove through the ice storm to Austin, where there was like just dead cars. You know, it was like zombie apocalypse

Got to a Marriott around the corner from here and thought well at least I'll be able to walk if if nothing else in my room overlooked

This on ramp and I just every day for a week with no running water and no bottled water

Watched the cars just slide up and down and then I finally went out to robs house where he at least had a pool for running toilets

Robb Wolf

Flushing the

Diana Rodgers

But I was living on basically like White claw and canned tuna

Joe Rogan

Oh my God, this was when you were

Supposed to be

Here yeah Oh my God

Diana Rodgers

Last year

Robb Wolf

I still have a can of wolf chili that she bought here that, but she didn't have a can opener and she was just like I don't know how to get into this thing so

Diana Rodgers

I got it a gas station

Joe Rogan

The thing is

It's if you grew up in a place that has winter, like Massachusetts

You're like, this is nothing like guys

This is a normal winter

Day, like what the **** And it it killed this place for a solid week

Diana Rodgers

Well, that's why I still came 'cause I was like they're overreacting

It's just one or two inches of snow, but I didn't realize it was going to be like misting

Nice yeah

Joe Rogan

Yeah, but you know, I mean come on, how much are trucks like?

Take care of this guys

Get some sand like is that that hard?

I mean it happens

It does happen

I mean the idea that you just like shut everything down

For a year

How much does that cost?

Seems like trucks are less expensive than whatever that costs

Diana Rodgers

Yeah yeah, and all the poor people that didn't know you can't heat your house with

A stove

Joe Rogan

Well, worse people use grills

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan

Yeah yeah they used like barbecue grills in their house and they burnt wood and they died

You know, like people got sick

Robb Wolf

Yeah, that was bad news and we were in the process of packing our house to move because we moved March

3rd up to Kalispell

So like all of this, chaos is going on and we didn't know if like the moving truck was getting in and then Diana

Made it to our place and then we weren't sure if she was making it out of there like it was

I mean first world problems, but kind of sketchy first world problems as far as they go

Joe Rogan

It lets you know that there's a thin veneer of civilization that keeps all the food on the shelves and all the cars moving

And it's not much

It's not much to throw

Robb Wolf

It off right, right, you know

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, definitely

Joe Rogan

I'm glad this is a good time to talk about your book

The book is a sacred cow, Diana Rodgers and Rob Wolf

It's available right now

The case for better meat

All I've been eating since January is meat

Oh, I've been eating is meat and and fruit

That's that's my diet

Meat, fruit and eggs

I've never felt better

I've done this before in the past, but I never stuck with it

I would do like that carnivore month of January

I did it like two years ago. I lost £12. I looked great, I felt

Great then I started eating

Spaghetti again shocker

I get fat

I get fat and then I my joints hurt again and that's the thing that drives me that it's the most wild

Rather, is my joints feel so good like everything feels better when I'm not eating foods that cause inflammation and for me

There's something. I mean, I'm I'm not advocating this for everybody but a meat based diet for me is 100%, at least in a short term

I've never done it for like years

I know like Shawn Baker and a few of those guys have done it for years and years

Paul saladino

But for me, short term there's nothing that's made me feel better and I can't imagine it would **** me up long term

I mean, I take a lot of vitamins

I do eat a lot of fruit, I'm my exercise

My exercise is great, my I feel healthy

I have plenty of energy

I avoided all the diarrhea 'cause when I just did only meat I had ridiculous

Diarrhea like astounding as my friend Tom Segura put it when he he tried it

He goes

This diarrhea is astounding

I'm like, yes, that's a good way to put it

Robb Wolf

I was following that and I was like at some point there may need to be an intervention like somebody like dropping you some Imodium or something, yeah?

That sounded rough

Joe Rogan

Well, there's something

About like eating a lot of fatty meat only right?

Right, there's no

Your body is like what is all this?

Where's the veggies like you're you, you always eat veggies

Spaghetti here

Where's where's the bread?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so as a dietitian to be talking about things like this

It's definitely blasphemy

Joe Rogan

Blasphemy yeah yeah

Diana Rodgers

I mean I, I get pushback like crazy from fellow dietitians

It's, you know

Joe Rogan

But what do they say?

Well, what's the goal right?

Isn't the goal?

To feel better to look better and to perform better

So if you're eating food that makes you feel better, look better and perform better

I mean, I was at 2:05 when I started this diet. Now I weigh 195 and it's only been two months

And I feel great like I'm not starving, I just lost weight

It just went

It just went away

I got my 6 pack back like I feel better

My joints feel better like I just feel better like isn't that the goal like the whole goal of your diet is supposed to be the vitality of your body, right?

Diana Rodgers

Right, and the whole goal of science should be to

Question your bias and seek the truth

Joe Rogan

Well, I know Sean Baker was telling me that there's a large study that's going on that Harvard is putting on for carnivore diet

Do you, do you know?

Robb Wolf

About that, they have some preliminary data on it, and I mean it, it's there's not

It's not a randomized control trial

There's not a a control group

It it's a survey and so you know it can be very critical of surveys, but it's interesting like 94% of the people that did it got off of the medications that they were on

Like entirely and it went through and detailed like some blood sugar changes

Blood sugars improved dramatically for the vast majority of people they saw lipids improve, not everybody

Some people on kind of a higher fat

Carnivore type diet

They see their lipids go up

And nothing really happened for I don't know 810 years. But then more people started writing about it. More people started talking about it

Now we have randomized control trials and we have all kinds of different interventions, and we have some proof that something like a Mediterranean type diet is probably pretty helpful for a lot of people

So when people criticize this stuff and they just dismiss it out of hand, like, well, there's no research on it

OK, that's fine, but this is where things begin, and it's usually observationally

You know, that?

OK, there's this group of people that seem to be getting these really remarkable results, and the thing that that was so interesting to me

My background was in autoimmunity and Cancer Research and I got into this because of gut and autoimmune issues

I'm the person that came up with the autoimmune paleo diet like I'm the person

That kind of you know, formalize that initially and it works pretty well

But when I saw what people were doing on a carnivore diet it it just blew me away like it

People who had done every other thing and they were so sick they were crippled from gut and autoimmune issues

They would go on this

Modified, you know carnivore type diet and put their their problems into remission and then have really remarkable health at the end of that

And it was a few people initially, but as it has grown, it's become this like really watershed moment and I

I don't think that a carnivore diet is like the first whistle stop somebody should do in dietary change. There's a lot of other **** you could do before that, but if you're really sick, you know I, I think to to both of y'all's points. If you're really sick and you're trying to improve things like it seems like a reasonable thing to use as an intervention

Just it's like playing darts and you're just trying to get closer to the bullseye and you can use that as a beginning point

Some people add in fruit, like Paul Saladino has added in more fruit and honey and stuff like that

Shaun Baker is an absolute beast and he's he wouldn't be caught dead eating fruit, you know, and it just seems to to work for him

But I I think that it's a reasonable place to at least start and begin tinkering with things, and maybe you stick with it long term

Or maybe you modify it down the road

Joe Rogan

Well, it's got to be a function of different requirements for different people's bodies, right? Different people ask more of their body like a guy like you does

A lot of jujitsu that's very physical

Some people don't

Some people, they just hike and maybe they could have a different diet

There's a lot of different things that, uh

Person needs depending on their lifestyle, but when you talk about like a Mediterranean diet specifically, what is what?

What is a Mediterranean diet like what's in there?

Robb Wolf

It's the kind of funny thing

I mean, you've got what the literature kind of says, and then you have what people actually eat and what folks actually eat is a lot of fatty fish

A lot of like lamb and goat and and they definitely eat some legumes

They eat local fruits and vegetables, a lot of olive oil, but it looks very it

It's not this so like grain centric

You know thing that

That is typically portrayed in

Modern dietetics

Joe Rogan

So, but is there like a there?

Is there a protocol for the Mediterranean diet?

Like if someone says I'm going on the Mediterranean diet, what do they mean?

Are they eating lettuce?

Do they have vegetables?

Robb Wolf

Usually Mediterranean diet mean to emphasis on seafood lean meat

Low fat dairy to some degree, legumes as kind of a preponderance for the carbs, like usually in preference to grains, although they'll have some grains in the in the mix too, but that's kind of the

Funny venues, good amount of vegetables

Yeah yeah olives, olive oil

Joe Rogan

OK, so it's essentially like a primal diet

Yeah, like the idea is just to cut out

Processed foods, yeah

Which is always a good step

One right, absolutely?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, but then when you look at what people in the Mediterranean actually ate, it's not

It's a made up diet

It's it's

Joe Rogan

Oh, interesting

Diana Rodgers

It's not really a diet, it's I mean I've been to Spain

They eat a lot of pork and pork is like not OK on a Mediterranean diet

Joe Rogan

It's not

Why is it not OK?

Isn't it a fatty?

Meat it

Diana Rodgers

Well, fatty fish is OK but not fatty meat

Robb Wolf

So so you have, you have the what people are actually doing versus kind of what's been canonized within dietetics

And they're really different, and also to Diane's point like what folks are doing in Spain is reasonably different than what they're doing in in Greece and Italy and whatnot. You know, just kind of a granular level, but that just as an aside, the only food

I think that is common to all of the blue zones is pork, but nobody ever mentions that really


Robb Wolf

Yeah, it's literally the only food that you know from Costa Rica to

I guess the only one with that that it's not part of would be like the 7th Day Adventist

Joe Rogan

But yeah, yeah, that's a weird one, right?

That one is that when people want to lump in all the blue zones

Like they they always like to use Seventh-day Adventist because they're vegetable based, right, right?

But they also no alcohol, no cigarettes, and daily exercise


Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and when you compare them to Mormons to have almost identical lifestyle but they eat meat, it's same lifespan

But the Mormons are left out of the blue zones

Joe Rogan

Because it didn't fit them

Robb Wolf

Doesn't fit the narrative

Joe Rogan

Really, plus they're problematic 'cause they're, you know their whole thing is a little wacky and they get to have a lot of wives

Or they used to

Diana Rodgers

They have the highest meat consumption per capita and the longest lifespans

Joe Rogan

They like to ignore

Diana Rodgers

That one so socioeconomics by far beats diet when you're looking at populations for longevity

Joe Rogan

Socio economics do so

Even someone with a poor diet but has a lot of money

Diana Rodgers

So they're they're going to have better access to health care

Joe Rogan

Like Trump

Robb Wolf

That's a good example

He's probably a good example

Joe Rogan

Yeah, I mean he was 74. He got COVID and he kicked in a few days and he's really

Kind of chubby

He's super chubby, yeah?

Diana Rodgers

So be with more money, generally have less stress

They don't work two jobs, they, so there's all these confounding factors when you're looking at these social connections

Robb Wolf

Social connections

Joe Rogan

And social connections helps

In what way, when?

How do you define?

Robb Wolf

This stuff gets a little bit sketchy, but there's, uh, some research that suggests that people with inadequate social connectivity like friends, family

Joe Rogan

Public loiners

Robb Wolf

It kind of loners, but you know, they're just socially isolated

That that is as negative on health as a pack a day smoking habit

Now that pack a day smoking habit gets thrown around a lot because people will say eating an egg is equivalent to, like you know, smoking 6 cigarettes or you know something like that, but it but it

Joe Rogan

Yeah, that's silly nuts

Robb Wolf

But I think when you think about like

Human evolution and small group environments and stuff like that

There's something really powerful there and it is clearly

You had Sebastian younger on and they they talk about

You know, poorer communities tend to have more social connectivity and you don't see suicides within these groups and whatnot

Joe Rogan


Robb Wolf

And there's a lot going on there, but I think that that

That social connectivity in my mind is on par with sleep and food with regards to overall health

Like if you're really negatively impacted there, it's it

It's going to be a major piece of of your overall health, and if you tick that box you can get away with a lot of other stuff

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so so I was listening to a book heartbreak

It's amazing

It's it's this new book out about a woman that got divorced and she's she gets really sick and she's trying to figure out why her health declines and she's kind of going through all the all the numbers and trying to seek it out and talking to these neuroscientists and everything

But loneliness

Your chance of dying early for loneliness is by far beats out cancer or autoimmune diseases

Heart disease

It's loneliness, wow

Joe Rogan

That makes sense

I mean, people make you feel good, like if you have good friends and you're around them and you're laughing like how?

How is that?

Not good for you, right you?

Know it really should be prescribed

Robb Wolf


Joe Rogan

Yeah so

Exercise is critical, but not the primary factor

Robb Wolf

I think it provides the quality of life and you know when we think about longevity and kind of healthspan versus lifespan

We want to live as well as we can as long as we can and then very short, you know, decline and and then you know, fade out and I think that's smart

Exercise a base level of cardio, some resistance training

Then just doing a variety of activity

Good mobility that I think that that feeds into the ability to do all the stuff that we want to do and also like

You get sick, you get injured, you get in a car accident or something like people you know

If you're you're better shape, you're just harder to kill

And I think that that

Is such a major factor, but I my opinion you could, you know, maybe agree, but I think when people tackle exercise as a calorie burning endeavor like you're much better

Time spent focusing on good quality food

Very protein centric 'cause it tends to be satiating so you don't overeat so you exercise so you have a ******* life

But if you want to lose weight, good body composition, it's really the nutrition part that that addresses the bulk of that

Joe Rogan

So the people that do exercise just for calorie burn out

But the problem I usually have with that is that I I don't think they enjoy it

I think they think of it as this task that one

Must do in

Order to look better or to justify a Sunday, you know, justify an ice cream sundae or a bowl

You know where it's like you should

You should enjoy the results like you feel good like it's great for the body

It's a stress reliever, it relieves anxiety

It's like

It's so critical if you're going through any like stressful period of your life

That is the time

Well, you gotta be like discipline

With your workouts you gotta hit em

Hard, right?

It's a medicine

That's how I feel

Yeah and

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and sarcopenia is something so that's age related muscle loss and we know everyone over 40 starts to lose their ability to digest protein and so your need for protein and your requirement to even just maintain muscle mass goes way up as you get older and the RDA

For protein

Is like so far below

It's set at the minimum to avoid disease

It's not the optimal amount, but even that RDA is way, way, way too low for bridging, yeah?

Joe Rogan

Well, what is the RDA for?

Diana Rodgers

Protein, so the RDA is .8 grams per kilogram of body weight. But then because Americans don't like kilograms and and they don't want to do the calculations, you'll see these numbers floating around

So for women they'll say women need 45 grams of protein and men need 55 grams of protein or something. But that's based on this

Ideal body weight of 125 for women and 1:50

5 for men

Joe Rogan

What do we live in the 30s?

Diana Rodgers

And so yeah, so the average weights according to the CDC for for women is 165, and for men it's like 195

Joe Rogan

Is that real?

The average weight for women is 165

Diana Rodgers

For American women, wow, yeah. And so when so then when you go .8 grams per kilogram

You're way above what what these RDA?

Now you're at about double what the RDA is

But then when you look at optimal amounts so we went through this in the book and I looked at all the research and how they came up with the RDA and you know we really need at least double the RDA of protein and we need it from animal source foods is a huge difference

Animal and plant source proteins

Joe Rogan

Now that this is something that vegans their hackles get up immediately

How much real data is there that shows like actual real-world data that shows that plant based protein is not as bioavailable as animal based protein?

Diana Rodgers

I mean, that's just basic biochemistry, it's just a fact

Joe Rogan

And what So what is it?

So if you have like 30 grams of broccoli protein versus 30 grams of beef protein, like what is the difference?

What's happening?

Diana Rodgers

Oh, that's a good question

I don't know exactly how like broccoli would compare to beef

Joe Rogan

Probably be a lot a lot

Of mass for broccoli, if you wanted to get 30 grams of broccoli protein like how much broccoli would that be?

A big *** bowl?

Robb Wolf

Of broccoli, you have your the beans

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

I do have it for

Uhm, yeah

Joe Rogan

For legumes, so let's look at that

Diana Rodgers

In fact I have

Yeah I have it

Yeah I have it

I don't know if the the Dropbox link that I sent came through

So I've got one comparing beans to beef and I have it for protein for vitamins and for minerals

Joe Rogan

And for farts

Robb Wolf

There's really no comparison

Diana Rodgers

But and and the other thing is is that's limiting

So here we have

So we don't just need protein, we need amino acids and so and there's a popular meme out there comparing broccoli to steak and how you can get all your protein just from broccoli but but kidney beans are much better source



Diana Rodgers

So I went with kidney beans and so 4

Ounces of steak versus 4 ounces of kidney beans and when when you see these plant based memes

They will be comparing uncooked beans and they will be doing it by calorie, not by

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

Right, so we need to, you know, look at you know portion size

Joe Rogan

And and why are they doing uncooked beans because?

Diana Rodgers

You get

There there's more beans in uncooked beans

Joe Rogan

Oh, I see 'cause the water is not yeah OK

Robb Wolf

It's like double

Joe Rogan

But it's not realistic in terms of portion of food, because you'd cook them and they swell up and

Diana Rodgers

You just and the calories that you would need to eat to get all right

So we have only 9 grams of protein from 4 ounces of kidney beans

So in order to get the same even close to the amount of total protein, you would need to eat

Over three times, the amount of kidney beans

Joe Rogan

So and that would be, you know, somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 something calories of

Diana Rodgers

And then you need

Joe Rogan

Of kidney beans

Diana Rodgers

To have rice with it as well, to to to balance it out

Joe Rogan

Right versus 180 calories of protein from or 180 calories from 30 grams of protein steak

Robb Wolf

And you know on that, like sarcopenia side like losing muscle mass as we age and also just for athletics, isoleucine, leucine, some of these branched chain amino acids are are the really important amino acids because they

Stimulate anabolic signaling, and you have a threshold with that

If you don't hit a certain threshold, it doesn't turn on the anabolic signaling, so you're you're tending to lose muscle mass

It's kind of some some broscience like you need to eat every two hours or you're going to lose muscle mass

It's not to that point, but we do need some amount of anabolic signaling exercise

Specifically, strength training causes that anabolic signaling and then eating a protein rich meal

That's that's rich in branched chain amino acids causes that signaling too

And it's it's not impossible to do via plant based methods, but it's hard like it's really kind of a calculus problem

To get that part, that box ticked like you need to do protein powders and stuff like that to usually get in there and and make that happen

But then you also get a ton of calories comparatively

Joe Rogan

Wouldn't the these simple solution be to if you wanted to have a plant based diet, is to eat the plant based protein but then substitute with exogenous amino acids?

Robb Wolf

You could and that

Joe Rogan

If you did that

Diana Rodgers

And stick more with lagoons and try not to get your protein from like quinoa or peanut butter

Like nuts are a really, actually horrible way to get protein

Joe Rogan

We'll get to in a second, but when you're making exogenous amino acids, is it possible to do that in a vegan way?

Robb Wolf

I mean they can just synthetic chemistry

Joe Rogan

What are they making amount of?

Robb Wolf

I mean then it's, you know it's other chemicals, but you could make it in a bit completely vegan

Joe Rogan

Friendly way, but it's chemicals, but not bad for you, just chemicals

Robb Wolf

Weird weird, right?

Joe Rogan

Word word right people panic

Right, so you could in fact get all of your amino acids and have some sort of plant based protein

Yeah, like what is the optimal plant based protein?

Is it pea protein?

Is it hemp protein like what's the best one?

Diana Rodgers

I would probably say

Pea protein would be optimal

Robb Wolf

Pete yeah yeah

Diana Rodgers

But you know, it's it's we're we're meant to eat things in their full form, and so if you were to

Actually eat peas

Yeah, that's a lot of peace

Joe Rogan

Right and how are they extracting the pea protein?

Diana Rodgers

I mean

Robb Wolf

A lot of kitchen chemistry

I mean you gotta separate out the the protein, carbs, fat and then isolate the proteins and whether you do a hydroxylated

The proteins like kind of pre digest them or leave it. Leave it together. Usually hydroxylate's taste horrible so

Yeah, but I mean in in like an idealized world

If somebody is really

They want to be vegan, but they want to take the boxes of of

Getting that anabolic signaling, preventing sarcopenia, improving you, know body composition

That is a way that you could do it and it would be vegan and it would give the the right amount of protein, not overfeeding you, potentially on the the calorie side, and that could be a way to

Joe Rogan

Kind of thread the needle so someone's like a vegan weightlifter, right?

And that that's the way they should do it

They should have like pea protein and then substitute with

Supplement rather with amino acid

Diana Rodgers

With especially with the branched chain amino

Joe Rogan

Acids and these are all the ones that you need

Cysteine histidine

Robb Wolf

Leucine and isoleucine are the main ones, and the and then valeene

But the leucine is the most anabolic signaling of all of them

Joe Rogan

And so if someone wanted to do that, like what, what would you take like?

What's what's a good late deserve a good brand branched chain amino acids

Does brand change when they say branched chain amino acids is that usually contain all these that we're seeing?

Robb Wolf

On this chart, not all of them

It'll be leucine, isoleucine, and valine typically

Joe Rogan

And so all those other ones

Should you have all those in there like how?

How would one supplement with like a fully?

Like if you look at all this stuff that you're getting from meat, it's crazy

Yeah, there's so much more like if you wanted to get those benefits

I mean is that what's going on when someone says that meat is not as bioavailable?

Is that part of what's going on?

Is that you're just not getting the same benefit from it because it doesn't have the amino acid profile

Diana Rodgers

Oh, and this isn't even taking into account bio availability

That's like a whole nother discussion

This is just the label, like the USDA Nutrient database numbers, but that doesn't take into account the protein digestibility score


Joe Rogan

So let's let's explain to people that are just listening

We're looking at this chart and it shows the sirloin steak on the left and the kidney beans on the right

And the amount of amino acids is in most cases four or five times more, if not more than that from the steak

Then you're getting from the beans

The beans have a similar calories, but only 9 grams of protein versus 30 grams of protein for the steak

So this is what we're looking at

Diana Rodgers

And then I have this broken out also for minerals and for vitamins just so the micronutrients that you're getting from animal source foods too, which are far superior to

So here we have

Joe Rogan

Vitamins right?

But this is just beans right?

Which are not really known as primary sources of vitamins

Diana Rodgers

They're touted as the magic food

Joe Rogan

Beans for vitamins

Diana Rodgers

For for nutrient density

Joe Rogan

Not for vitamin A since they have 0%

Robb Wolf

But this is the

This is kind of the cul-de-sac you get stuck into though, like how do you get enough protein?

How do you not overeat and then what type of nutrient deficiencies are you facing at the end of that?

Like it it it's

Joe Rogan

Well, if you

Look, it's funny that they put vitamin D 'cause you don't really don't get vitamin D from food on both of them have zero percent like why is that on there then?

Diana Rodgers

It's just part of the USDA


Joe Rogan

Oh, I see. And vitamin A again. It's like you know we get 1% from steak, but the big ones are vitamin B12

That's a big one, 'cause if you look at big the the big difference in B12 in kidney beans you have zero percent B12 and steak. You have 95% of your USD and that's just for 4 ounces

There's a small portion of sirloin steak, and you're getting almost a full daily requirement of vitamin B12, which that is a big factor with people that are on a plant based diet is getting their their B12

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and we iron and B12 or two of the most common nutrient deficiencies worldwide

Joe Rogan

And both of those are common in meat and not very common in in plant based stuff

Diana Rodgers

Stuff, yeah, and whenever there is a nutrient in both plants and animals, our bodies prefer the animal source nutrients

Joe Rogan

Why is that and how do we?

Know that

Diana Rodgers

So for

Like example beta carotene, which is like what makes sweet potatoes, orange and carrots orange

We have to convert that to vitamin A retinol, which is the usable form

So when we eat an animal source of vitamin A which is in fats of animals

We're getting it directly and there's about 45% of the population has a gene that makes it so they can't make that conversion efficiently

So not only do we have to convert it, but then almost half of all humans can't do it very well, and so to convert

Beta carotene to vitamin A and that's just one you know

Heme iron in animals

Joe Rogan

Half of the people that can't

Is it because of the location of their ancestors is?

Diana Rodgers

It that's my guess, because what we see with Omega Threes is people that you know lived along coast where they were getting their Omega threes from fish

Lack the ability to efficiently convert plant source

Essential fatty acids to the ones that we actually need for our bodies to use

Joe Rogan

Very interesting

And so, how would one know?

How would one find out if there that may mean maybe some people could digest sweet potatoes really easily?

Some people can't like what

How do I know?

Robb Wolf

Some genetic testing can ferret some of that out, but now that we have people that come from so many different backgrounds it it can be challenging and the genetic testing isn't isn't perfect on that

You know you can find it

Maybe you have a high likelihood of converting the the carotenoids into retinol

But then some some of these nutrient issues are gut related, so if your gut microbiome is deficient in

Some type of of bacteria you may not even get that the the conversion to be able to get the the beta carotene into your body, so that's another layer to it

It just gets really complex

Like I, I think you almost go the simpler way of instead of trying to get in and and get super detailed on like the genetics

How do you look?

How do you feel?

How do you perform?

Keep kind of an inventory of what you're reading, and then if we if there are some pretty classic nutrient deficiency syndromes, you know like dry skin and split nails and things like that for for zinc deficiency as an example, and so it's almost easier to go that way versus trying to get in and then from like first principles

Figure out

What's your genetics and what's the perfect diet that's going to work for you?

Joe Rogan

Yeah, so the bio availability

What do we know in terms of the bio availability of the print?

The plant based proteins versus animal based proteins like how do we know that the body?

Is absorbing the protein more efficiently from an animal source?

Diana Rodgers

I'm trying to pull up the UM

The protein bioavailability chart 'cause there is a chart that sets it and it's animal source proteins are always above plant source proteins 100%

Robb Wolf

Mechanistically, what they do is they'll figure out a given amount of protein, and then they've fed that to people, and then they will look at serum amino acid levels

After that kind of track them over time so and will based proteins

You're going to let's say you give them 30 grams of protein and then you track over a 2 hour period

The branch all the amino acids that we that we see go up and then down during that and you can compare that to beans or broccoli and and so that that is a piece of how you figure out the the comparative bioavailability of 1 protein versus another

And you see this even just with like cooked proteins versus non cooked proteins like

Could I know that there's kind of?

I like eating some like steak tartar here and there and stuff like that, but there's just kind of a reality that meat that is cooked is much more bioavailable

For the proteins and also the nutrients that are in it versus raw meat

Joe Rogan

That's interesting, like what about rare?

Robb Wolf

I'm not sure on that because it's still cooked some, so I'm not

Joe Rogan

It's cooked on the outside, but the inside is pretty

Robb Wolf

Yeah, it's cooked on the outside

Yeah, I don't

I suspect that you're you know, like if you were to suivi something and slow cook it

And in it's cooked thoroughly

I think that it would

That would probably optimize, like the bioavailability of the the whole protein, yeah?

Joe Rogan

What about the difference between like a medium, rare and a well done is well done, less bioavailable or more?

Robb Wolf

I think that well done

It's probably more bioavailable, but it, but it tastes so bad that what's


Robb Wolf

I thought about that it's a really good question

I I don't know for sure, but

If you only eat a tiny piece of it because it tastes horrible, then I don't know if it's really help you

Joe Rogan

Because I'm always wondered, like, particularly because of game meat, 'cause wild game meat is always being touted as being much more protein rich than domestic cattle

And I I eat a lot of that stuff, so I'm always wondering like what is going on, how?

Do they know it's definitely lean?

Robb Wolf

So I mean you're getting a lot of protein per serving because the game meat is so incredibly lean

So when you compare it

Per calorie, or even if you've just got, you know, four or five oz on a scale. If you have like a rib eye, what is a rib eye like? 20% fat by weight? Something like that

Diana Rodgers

I think it's more 45%

Robb Wolf

It's 45 by calories. Or is it 45?

Percent by weight

Diana Rodgers

Well, so so

There's no carbs in meat, so all you have is protein fat

So if you're looking for like what has more protein like boneless skinless chicken breast can have more protein than a burger only because

As less fat

Robb Wolf

But it also has less nutrients overall because the a lot of the, like the fat soluble vitamins, the EA, not really DK is is all in the the fact

Diana Rodgers


Robb Wolf

So that's one of the benefits of eating at least some amount of animal fat, because those fat soluble vitamins kind of associate with that

Joe Rogan

About the difference between a red meat and a white meat like a chicken versus like a you know grass fed steak

Diana Rodgers

Beef is about

30% more nutrient dense than chicken

Per calorie and chicken is really high in Omega 6 is

Robb Wolf

Really interesting

Diana Rodgers

Like really high the inflammatory no

Joe Rogan

Is that good?

Diana Rodgers

The inflammatory fats so you know, we're we're a lot of people think chicken is more

Virtuous to eat for some reason

But it it's yeah like like you, you know there, you'll see like everyone who has these like clean eating books that are eliminating meat, but they'll still have boneless skinless chicken breast in there of course, and it's more like almost more like tofu of meat

Joe Rogan

Virtuous is that

Diana Rodgers

You know it's not

A bone like white and you know

Kind of clean looking

Joe Rogan

Plus, chickens do a little heartless dinosaurs

Yeah, you know people don't really, you know cows you could pet them and stuff chickens

Just trying to figure out if they can

Eat you and they will

If they could? Oh dude, I used to have chickens and they pecked at my daughter's feet. And my wife was like she thinks that the hand

Thinks our daughter's foot was a mouse or a warm something. Oh no, she's trying to eat her daughter

Robb Wolf


Joe Rogan

Like what do you think?

She's just dumb

This is a dumb little marble ********* head

He's trying to eat our kid like like that's how I thought about that chicken

I'm like FCK off you little **** like ****** birds

Diana Rodgers

So I always tell people like if you're in a grocery store and you don't have access to, you know, know your farmer or grass fed beef and you're just looking at pork, chicken or beef

From a nutrient density from an animal welfare and from an environmental perspective, actually beef is going to be the better choice when you're looking at the industrial food system model

Joe Rogan

That's OK, so this is where we get into the weeds, right?

Because when you say that in any way that beef or raising beef is good for the environment in any way, shape or form, that's when people go nonsense

The doctrine as stated upon high is that if we want to save the environment, we have to

Eat less meat

Yeah, I hear this from people with no evidence

I hear it from people and they spouted out and I go

What are you saying?

Well, you should know already, they'll they'll give you that

You should know already that if you're eating a lot of meat, it's bad for the environment

Like how's it bad?

Tell me how it's bad, what's going on and they'll bring up factory farming

I'm like, well, factory farming is horrible, it's horrible

Everybody, everybody says

Disgusting, but what about regenerative farming and they're like, well, that's not sustainable

That doesn't work

Diana Rodgers

Or we don't have the

Land for

It right?

Robb Wolf

And this is where sometimes I think that we chose to do the book and film because we wanted to commit career suicide and public public self immolation both at the same time

Because it's like we

This thing ended up ******* everybody off because we don't

We're not totally in the like whitewashed regenerative AG camp like we

We see some laudable features, two pieces of like the industrial system and some of the meat that we brought you is from a local outfit that mainly pasture feeds there

They're meat, but when they were, they were in a drought situation and so they reached out to some of the local breweries and they got

A bunch of

You know, residue from the brewing process and that's what they supplemented their animals with

Joe Rogan

Some kind of barley grain, yeah

Robb Wolf

And and that's a whole other interesting thing

Is the bulk of the the food that is given to cattle comes out of the ethanol industry

It we're not stealing food from humans to to do that with chickens and pork, you kind of are allocating food that could have otherwise

On to humans, but even conventional beef spent 70% of its life on grass and then that finishing process, oftentimes part of the finishing process

They put it in a wheat field where the the wheats been harvested and then it it eats the crop residues and it's eating

You know the the mash from

You know industrial or or

You know, drinkable ethanol production, so there's a whole interesting nutrient upcycling story there that just gets buried, and it's really important, and it's really valuable to very efficient, but it doesn't really fit into either camp, it it isn't this beautiful view that that we would like all these

You know grass fed

Pasture raised, you know, stories to fit into, and it's definitely not the horrors of like industrial chicken production, which is super gnarly

Joe Rogan

Super gnarly what is drinkable ethanol?

Robb Wolf

Beer, wine, you know

Just just the stuff because you have industrial ethanol and then you have the stuff for it, but a lot for for you know, beer, wine, spirits, all that type of stuff

Diana Rodgers

Or even oatly they got into trouble from some of their followers because the hulls from the oats were going to feed pigs

And Oatly is a is a oat milk company

Joe Rogan

What is oatly?

OK, I hate when they say that oat milk like not does not come out of oat breast

Diana Rodgers

Oat water

Joe Rogan

Stop it, you stop

It with the milk

You know that's not milk, it's just you're doing weird **** with water, right?

You know it's not

Robb Wolf

Milk it's oat T

Joe Rogan

Yeah, yeah, that's that's good

Yeah, call it oat white OT yeah

Or almond T

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, but but there's a lot of leftovers from their processing, so they were feeding pigs with it, which is an awesome use of that


Diana Rodgers

But the vegans found out and put the kabash on it, and now they're trying to form oat bars for humans

Joe Rogan

Oh God residue

Diana Rodgers

Out of this inedible fiber that exactly

Joe Rogan

Oh Jesus

Diana Rodgers

And so, but the you know with cattle because they're ruminants, they their digestive system is very different than a pig or a chicken

And a cow can actually can upcycle stuff that has no other use in our food system is just going to sit in a pile and emit greenhouse gases anyway if we don't feed it to cows and so they can actually eat

Stuff we can't eat and turn it into beef

Joe Rogan

Interesting, so that's the the grain that's left over the mash that's leftover from the breweries, and that's this oat stuff

And so the the vegans got upset and was they were upset because they were bringing it to people that were giving this stuff to pigs that were going to be led to slaughter

Wow, is there a way to like?

I mean, it seems like it's silly to just not use it

I mean, you know the Earth uses it, right?

If it does biodegrade, it's going to compost and it's going to

Have some sort of

Robb Wolf

A function for days, but when you're dealing with industrial levels of that, like in in Brazil, there's a problem with the banana peels 'cause the banana peels are actually

It it

Robb Wolf

Pretty toxic and it's hard to figure out how to how to deal with those things

Joe Rogan

Wait a minute

How are banana peels toxic?

When I watch so many people on Tik T.O.K make shredded pork out of banana peels?

Robb Wolf

If they really get after it, they're going to have a a rough day

They're going to **** themselves

Joe Rogan

Have you ever seen that ever?

Robb Wolf

Yeah yeah, yeah

Seen him do that

Joe Rogan

So that's not edible, right?

Like what are they doing?

They're basically like spicing up garbage

And trying to serve it as pulled pork?

Yeah, that is so weird when they do that

Does Shawn Baker videos where he's sitting there have you haven't seen his?

Robb Wolf

And he's just horrified

Joe Rogan

Shaun Baker has a giant cutting board and literally like a machete, and he's just slicing into beef and he's eating this like 4 pound rib eye

And while he's cutting into beef

On the other side of the screen you see someone making like tofu ribs

Yeah, here it is, yeah

Look at him

Robb Wolf

It's some of the best performance art on the Internet

Joe Rogan

Well, like the size that ******* tape

Diana Rodgers

I do love the size of that night

Joe Rogan

The the knife is so preposterous he's just taking big slices of meat

Diana Rodgers

Oh, and here's the banana peel

Joe Rogan

And so they're taking this banana peel and they scrape off the stuff on the inside

So he's eating pork too, and so he's eating real pork while they're eating this stuff

Robb Wolf

Hey court

Joe Rogan

Well, it's like what what is in a banana peel

I mean what is it?

Just plant fiber there's or any nutrients at all

Robb Wolf

I mean technically there would be some nutrients, but what it has is the anti predation chemicals to keep things from eating the banana

So it has these, uh, I don't know if it's opponents, and I think it's opponents kind of a soap like substance, but it will really irritate and damage the gut lining like they try to feed it to cattle and even cattle that are really good at eating kind of squirrely

Things it will make the cattle sick

Joe Rogan

So that's just the outside though

Why doesn't the inside have those things?

The inside of banana?

Robb Wolf

That even that stuff that she's scraping out has some of that in it

Joe Rogan

But the banana itself doesn't

Robb Wolf

Too, yeah

The banana doesn't

I interesting, yeah

Diana Rodgers

That's why fruit is

Doing well for you right now

So fruit wants you to eat it because it wants you to deposit the seeds somewhere

Else, right?

Joe Rogan

It wants you to pull it out and so the seeds will be fertilized and then they'll grow somewhere else

That's the it's whole strategy plan

Robb Wolf

That's his

Joe Rogan

Yeah, that's the thought process behind way

Paul Saladino describes his

You know he's he calls himself Carnivore MD

And basically he's got a meat based diet

But he supplements it with fruit

And this is the first time I've ever tried to do it that way, and it's so much easier to do right than just eat meat and it just

It's great because before workouts like today, I had two bananas and then I worked out like if no problem exercising, whereas I was when I was just eating meat

I was a little draggy, like when I

Robb Wolf

Was working out and I love meat but the only time of my life like I've eaten kind of a ketogenic diet for

23 years, but there are some some a little bit of fruits and vegetables, some different things in there, and the only time that I had like neurotic food desires was when I was doing like strict carnivore like

And I wanted pizza and ice cream and **** that I never wanted before

Joe Rogan


Robb Wolf

Like I I went kind of crazy

Whereas like

Loosening it up and having a little bit of fruit a little bit of honey here and there, particularly for you know pre or post workout or something

Like I'm I'm fine with that

Joe Rogan

Do you think that's what is that process of converting the meat to sugar gluconeogenesis?

Do you think that that's what that is?

It's like your body, like cranking it up

Diana Rodgers

It's an expensive

Process, it's a hard process to do

Robb Wolf

Could be that could have been

I was just nuts

Diana Rodgers

You're I mean

Rob and I are already really restricted with our diets

Robb Wolf

We both have celiac, so

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so like

Joe Rogan

What is Cecilia can't have any wheat, can't have any

What it what it?

What is the bulk of the restrictions?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, I mean everything on the inside of the grocery store is just completely or even going to a Taco place

And if they fried the corn tortilla on the same griddle as the flower one, I would have reaction

Robb Wolf

It's it's celiac, has an autoimmune gluten sensitivity so the villi the little finger like things that line the gut that help absorb nutrients

Joe Rogan

You know?

Robb Wolf

Those just get killed via an autoimmune reaction because the body is

It's made antibodies against proteins in our body by mistakenly making them against the the gluten gliadin proteins

Joe Rogan

But how many people have this and don't know about it?

Diana Rodgers

I know that

They they think it's one in a


People have it

Wow, it took me until I was 26 to find out that I had it I

Had it my whole life

Joe Rogan

And you were just eating pizza and going off

Diana Rodgers

And being very sick

Joe Rogan

Yeah, interesting so

So there's the celiac thing and this requires you to stay away from all glutens

Is there anything else that it requires you to stay away from?

Are you allow?

Is are nuts OK?

Like peanuts, walnuts

Diana Rodgers

I mean, I definitely feel better when I eat a diet more close to what you described

But yeah, strictly meat was a little intense for me

Although you know I wanted to mention I had a nutrition client who with

Compulsive overeating

And so, and I've sat through these

They're like AA meetings, but for people that are compulsive overeaters, so like their reward signals just light up

Times a million in their rain when they when they encounter certain foods

Joe Rogan

Really, what is that?


Diana Rodgers

Yeah, I mean that you know, I think some people just are prone to addiction

Joe Rogan

Is it?

Psychological thing?

Or is it?

Is there like a sync like is there a thing you could track in the brain when they're overeating like this?

Diana Rodgers

I mean my theory on this is that

Some people are just low dopamine and they may get into heroin

They may get into gambling or they may become compulsive overeaters, and it's just sort

Of how it plays out

Robb Wolf

Well, like some of my clients they

Do all of the above

Diana Rodgers

Or or or all of them

But so I sat in on a meeting when I was a Dietetic student and

They all have to identify their trigger food and then agree to not eat it and abstain from it

So sort of like an alcoholic type meaning except for unfortunately for them you have to eat

You can't avoid eating, you know

And it was white foods that was

Unanimously, the trigger food for, like all these people, but it's still can be overwhelming to figure out what you're going to eat

And so anyway, I had a young woman who she just wanted to go carnivore

It was easier for her to like

Just give herself only that and she lost and she had rheumatoid arthritis that went into remission

Joe Rogan

She lost

Diana Rodgers

Gosh like 60. It's still going actually. I think the last time I checked was 60 or 75 pounds

Joe Rogan

And her arthritis went into remission

Yes, So what do we think is happening to people guts?

Do you think that it's the plant defense chemicals that are messing with people?

's guts, do you think with when it comes to, obviously not celiacs, which is an extreme version, but when people do have issues with autoimmune issues that are food related?

But it what is causing this stuff?

Robb Wolf

I, I think there's a lot like we have now. You know, antibiotics were developed in the 1930s like the sulfa based antibiotics and it was 1950s ish that the more penicillin derived antibiotics started hitting

So how many generations now do we have, like mom, to baby, mom to baby like alterations, potentially in the gut microbiome?

So some people who have the celiac gene don't express celiac disease because they have gut microbes that that trim up the Prolia lendo peptidase

It it the Prolia Linda peptidase bacteria that break up the the gluten proteins

Joe Rogan

Is that something someone could supplement with?

Robb Wolf

Kind of, but it doesn't work that well, like it it

It's kind of like, uh, it will protect you from like cross contamination a little bit, but like you get so sick with celiac, it it?

It's something that I would be careful

You know, playing around with that, but you know

So you've got antibiotics

You have alterations in in just our environment

I think that there's gut issues, mitochondrial issues and then changes in our food supply, so I think it's a lot of different things

Low vitamin D levels like the autoimmune diseases track very, very closely with

Latitude you tend to see relatively little autoimmune disease near the equator and then you see it much higher at higher latitudes, so vitamin D is a big factor, so there's a lot of different things that go into it, which is a little bit of the problem of trying to figure out how to fix it, because doctors have a tendency to just say that people are crazy or it's mainly in their head because there's like this piece and that piece and the other piece

There's clearly a piece to a loss of gut barrier function like that's pretty well understood

Alessio Fasano like he he's a researcher mainly looking at celiac disease, but he has celiac disease as a model for autoimmune disease in general, but there's a loss of intestinal barrier function when intact food particles can make it

Into the body, then the body can mount immune responses to everything, and then the flip side of this

And maybe why Carnivore works so well is it if somebody eats a very simple diet, it doesn't irritate the gut

The gut can heal and then the body is not primed to be, you know, reacting as as much doesn't mount the same immune response and so you can kind of dial that

That inflammatory process down

Diana Rodgers

There's there's also other people that think that you know when you live in a really clean environment and you're

Robb Wolf

Oh yeah, the hygiene hypothesis

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so so all of us have immune systems that want to be working and and exercising themselves all the time

And in places where you're more likely to have parasites or you know other pathogens through your food

Your immune system is busy working on all that stuff and and keeping you healthy

But when you are living in a place where there's just not anything for your immune system to work on, then it'll work on you and start attacking yourself

Joe Rogan

How much do you buy into this idea that plants, whether it's like kale or whatever they these plant defense chemicals that these plants emit are causing some autoimmune issues with people?

Robb Wolf

For sure they they are

Joe Rogan

For sure

Robb Wolf

In some people it shouldn't really be that way though, not to the degree that we we see now

And this is where just looking back at Lake

The 1950s, you know, people weren't celiac existed then, but it didn't exist to the degree it does now

You didn't see these multiple chemical sensitivities that that folks have now

Plant defense mechanisms are definitely there

I mean, part of the reason why people soak sprout and ferment grains and legumes is that it?

Decrease it's those things, so within most traditional food cultures there's ways of taking relatively toxic food to making them less toxic, like wait, what do they do with the Taro root to to get the cyanide out of it?

I mean just cooking, but they will also prevent it

Joe Rogan

Oh yeah, that's a big process

Robb Wolf

Yeah yeah, but yeah

Diana Rodgers

Even with corn and lime

Robb Wolf

Yeah, corn and lime, isn't it

So there's a lot of historical food systems that

That help deal with this stuff, but it it just when you look at most traditional food systems, it took pretty good care of people like not everybody on the planet need to eat Paleo to to have really outstanding health

You know traditional meso American food

Even though it was very corn rich, they they figured out that you needed to

To do some things to

Prevent pellagra, which is this B vitamin deficiency ultimately, which was the inclusion of lime but

There's something that's changed where we are

Joe Rogan

The inclusion of line, what do you mean?

Robb Wolf

The the the

Diana Rodgers

When you make corn tortillas, traditionally you you like ferment it with lime and that breaks down some of the anti nutrients

With the corn it makes it more digestible

Joe Rogan

Oh, I see yeah yeah

So this is when they're making the tortilla

Right, right?

So what about the difference between a cooked vegetable versus a raw vegetable?

Because one of the things that people love to

Say is like, oh

I only eat raw

Vegetables and I'm like hey man, I don't think that's good

I used to think that was good

But I don't think that's good anymore

You're right

Diana Rodgers

Period, I mean it's just really hard to digest them

And I mean when you look back at traditional cultures pre agriculture

What you ate when you could get that and then all the other stuff was what you ate when you couldn't get the meat

Joe Rogan

He stated to survive


Joe Rogan

Just to give you some calories

Diana Rodgers


Yeah, but meat meat is the most nutrient dense, perfect food for humans

It just is

Joe Rogan

It's such an exhausting conversation when you say that to people though

Like you said, I think you know you're eating all that meat

Like what about your cholesterol?

What about you gotta have a heart attack?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and it's working its way into policy, which is really disturbing to me

Like as a mother like New York City public Schools vegan on Fridays

Now, in addition to Meatless Mondays

So now you've got

A school system where 70% of the kids are economically disadvantaged

And might go home on the weekends like they need school lunch, right?

And now you're, you're you're flanking the weekends with nutrient poor both Friday and Monday

Joe Rogan

And it's this ideologically driven thing that's based on this idea that if you eat less meat, it's better for the environment like this thing that they say

And they also say, for health purposes like, oh, they'll, they'll, they'll cite the China study like this one ******* study and like, no matter how much you say like hey, you need to read the rebuttals of the China study because they're pretty brutal and it's it shows that it's a lot of biased evidence and that they really didn't do a good job of being objective about that

Diana Rodgers

So there's one thing that's that's coming up that's happening right now. That's really interesting, so there's this thing called the global burden of disease, and this is published by The Lancet, and it's what most global food policy is set on. And between their report in 2017 and 2019

Meat was 36 times more likely to kill you

And there were some researchers, some friends of mine that pushed back they wrote a letter to The Lancet which was blocked

Blancett, it sounds like it's finally going to be publishing it like over the next couple days

Joe Rogan

Finally, publishing this thing that says that meet us

36 more times

Diana Rodgers

Oh no, that's out the 2019 global burden of disease is out, and I actually had a, uh, a graphic on that, just to show

Joe Rogan

That's how

What are you saying is going to be published?

Diana Rodgers

So some friends of mine right?

Because these guys didn't provide any evidence at all

As to why meat, so there's this theoretical minimum risk exposure level that you know is supposed to be the safe level of meat you can eat, and it went down to 0

According to these researchers, which is going to be global food policy?

You can now eat 0 red meat safely with no so that they said they did their own systematic review, but they were

They didn't show any of the evidence any of the papers they reviewed, and there aren't

There's no research that's strong that's showing

Meat is, there's only one randomized control trial


Joe Rogan

If they're not showing you evidence, any evidence, they're not not showing any papers

How is this?

How is this science?

Diana Rodgers

Right, and so finally The Lancet is going to publish this paper where my colleagues are questioning

The results and where is the science and the land set?

I mean the global burden of disease is the land set

This is a really

Very big deal

Joe Rogan

So I don't understand like what is there I I always thought that with scientific papers you had to cite sources and you had to so

Robb Wolf

Up until about two years ago, that was pretty consistent, and then I think we've seen a loosening of standards

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, here's the difference. Between 2017 and 2019, so you can see the top part is what we're doing in excess and you can see that diets high in red meat used to be a very small percentage of like the cause of death globally

Which is even a silly thing, but it was it used to be. Sodium was much higher, and now meat has gone up. Do you see this 36 times more likely to be the cause of death?

Joe Rogan

How's that?

Diana Rodgers

In two years

Joe Rogan

So this is the study

This is and this analysis when when they're doing this, how are they coming to this conclusion?

Diana Rodgers


Robb Wolf

Nobody knows

Diana Rodgers

Nobody knows there, they're just saying it

Joe Rogan

They just tell you they're just saying it

So what is their motivation?

Diana Rodgers

We don't really know

Robb Wolf

I mean a little tinfoil hat YII think that there's a powerful desire to consolidate food production globally and

This is an amazing way to do it it it's

The as it is, there's I think that six or seven companies produce like 90% of the food that's consumed globally. But what we've seen over time is just more consolidation, more consolidation, and

There's this kind of weird interface between tech and venture capital and food

There's been some interesting pieces where folks are looking at food like they want it to be operated, like IP, like software

They want you to be able to own the intellectual property around it

Joe Rogan

It's interesting you say that because Bill Gates is now the largest owner of farmland in the United States

We looked at that up once there was some sort of dispute about that, but then we looked at

It said he was right

Diana Rodgers

He wants to be

Robb Wolf

He seems a lot, but it

Joe Rogan

That way, shitload, yeah

Diana Rodgers

He's the gates

Gates Foundation is one of the major sponsors of this study that I was just talking about

Joe Rogan

OK, so it's ******* so and but The thing is, he keeps saying that we've got to eat less meat

And you know, we've got to cut our consumption of meat out to be healthy

And then we're going to get used to these meat alternatives when a guy like that says that I'm like, are you making money because of this?

Like why are you saying that?

And by the way you look like ****

Like 'cause if you're eating those those plant based burgers or whatever the **** you're doing, like you're obese like a guy like that telling people about he's got these breasts in this this gut and I'm like this is crazy

You're one of the richest guys on Earth

You have access to the best nutrients

The best you could have on an amazing trainer

You could be in phenomenal shape and you're giving out public health advice

You're giving out health advice and you're sick

It's like literally like a non athlete trying to coach professionals like what the **** are you talking about?

How are you giving any health advice?

When you look like that, your health is **** **** I'm not a doctor, but when you've got man ***** and a gut and you're walking around, you have these like toothpick arms

I'm like, hey buddy, you're not healthy

This episode is brought to you by athletic greens, even if you have the healthiest diet imaginable, it's hard to give our body everything it needs, which is why I take athletic greens

Just one tasty scoop of AG 1 supports tumors 1

Diana Rodgers

Unhealthy, there's a lot

Of profit to be made in in processing something into

Beyond Burger, there's a lot of profit

To be made

Joe Rogan

But those aren't even selling anymore

Have you noticed that?

Robb Wolf

Yeah, they

We're kind of lucky in a way like the the consumers kind of got in and poked around that

And there was Forbes didn't interesting piece where they there was so much interest from the vegan community around Impossible burger and impossible foods

And this warpspace was interesting

It made the case that these people were usually very progressive and very anti corporation

We're like the biggest fans or, or, you know, promoters of this corporatization of our food system, which is kind of where

All this stuff is going what we're

Joe Rogan

They're getting duped

Robb Wolf

They really are, but you know it's on the one side

There's this story that meat will cause cancer and diabetes and all this stuff, and it's going to destroy the planet because of carbon emissions and it it's using all the water and the land

And and it's a

It's a slick story

It's a

It's an elevator pitch

It's elegant

It's like buttoned up air tight

And then when we start trying to unpack that

You have to dig into ecology and non equilibrium thermodynamics, and it's not an elevator pitch and it's a lot of work to to unpack what those claims are, and then you know even what is the motivation to do this

Then we start getting into conspiracy theory

Land is like, well, there are people that want to control the food system and they want to

You know, turn food into intellectual property that they own, but

It's that really seems to be what's going on with

Diana Rodgers

This, and I think they're they're not

They've realized consumers aren't going to just buy it in the grocery store

And by the way, it's twice as expensive like beyond burger is twice as expensive as organic grass fed beef

Per pound, but they sell it in half pound packages right next to the pound packages and so

Joe Rogan

No, they trick you

Diana Rodgers

But so, why not just make it policy and indoctrinate these kids from kindergarten to age 12

With these messages, like the Meatless Monday, messages are all wrong

Like they're all wrong

Joe Rogan

What is the message?

Diana Rodgers

Meat is bad for your health and the environment and and they use these beautiful simplistic infographics showing you know livestock takes up 3/4 of the land

But but

OK, but it's not talking about the types of land you know or that your burger used

10 bathtubs full of water

But then we're not talking about

OK, that the most of the water footprint for a cow is actually in the grass

It's called green water

It's like water that's already in the environment

In rain, whether the cow was there or not, it's going

To happen

Robb Wolf

We have that infographic like that one is

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, I have the the water one

Joe Rogan

Really, if you want to talk about how much water a burger uses up, you better not be eating almonds

Exactly, yeah, exact or not being you better shut your mouth if you're eating almonds, right?

Those things are ridiculous

Diana Rodgers

So here's the water one and I've broken it down

Land use feed use, but this is just the water one, and So what most people don't get is that there's, you know, green water's natural rain. And then the blue water is like what when you look down on a map and see

Rivers and lakes

Joe Rogan

So what we're looking at folks that are just listening is when you look at typical beef versus grass finished beef

It looks like there's probably like how many dots are on

Diana Rodgers

A little different, so we're we're at the bottom. I have the percentages so it's 94% green water for typical beef and 97% green water for average, and this is average, like in Vermont

Joe Rogan

These things

Diana Rodgers

It might be different than

Joe Rogan

Nevada, but so they have it broken down to these droplets, and these droplets is 100 droplets on each side and two droplets

From the grass finished beef or lakes streams and underground water, 3 droplets from the typical beef

So and that's what everybody is concerned about

What people are really concerned about the concerned about the draining of the lakes and streams and

Underground water leaks

Diana Rodgers

So it's not drinking water, it's

Joe Rogan


And the rest of it, the entire graph is natural rain, which is rain that exists

Moisture that exists

Robb Wolf

Well, yeah, and I mean it's going to fall on this land, which is land that has been grasslands for eons and we can't use it for anything else

Joe Rogan

And vegetable matter plant matter


Robb Wolf

When people say we

We use all this land for cattle

That's you know, bison or a a good example

I'm good friends with the folks that own roam Free Bison Ranch in Montana

They they do both cattle and bison because the cattle don't go up these super steep mountains, and so they you know they're these grassland mountains that the bison graze, and if they don't graze it then the whole ecosystem just collapses

The the the ecosystem has been this plant animal interaction for millions of years and

Joe Rogan

This plant animal interaction is based on the animals manure fertilizes the plants, the animals eat, the plants, dung beetles

Robb Wolf

Dung beetles, insects, birds

You know all this stuff so it's not stealing land from anything

This is what grasslands do

It's not stealing water from anything

This is the rain, sleet and snow that falls on the grasslands, and these animals should be there because it's part of a healthy ecosystem, like the Audubon Society in the last 10 years as beginning

Really involved in regenerative act because one of the first things that they see when people start doing pasture based meat is that the bird species come back and come back in in remarkable profusion because it starts fixing

If you fix all of the ecosystem issues, then these literal Canary in the coal mines end up getting addressed and we see more bird species

Joe Rogan

Come back, this brings us to this whole idea of regenerative agriculture being scalable

And and is it?

Diana Rodgers

So I well first of all

85% of the beef cattle in the US right now are grazing on land. We can't crop

So these

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so 'cause cattle only spend about the last three or so months of their lives on feedlots and so really good grazing can happen even if they do

End up being finished on grain

Joe Rogan

So most cattle are not all cattle, so they don't just eat grain

Diana Rodgers

Off cap

Joe Rogan

From the moment they're babies, you know

Diana Rodgers

No no

Joe Rogan

They grass and then when they're getting ready to slaughter them, then for how many months they eat

Diana Rodgers

Grain three to four are usually about 3

Joe Rogan

And then they basically get sick

Diana Rodgers

It depends on the system

I mean it

Like like this beef that I brought you today

They're still out on pasture

They're getting some grant

I mean, there's there's there's like kind of middle ground

It's not like all good or all bad

You know, in an area where if if he were just to let his cattle graze

They they cattle wouldn't have enough grass because there you guys aren't getting rain in Austin and so the cows would get sick so

Joe Rogan

How to do something to supplement what you're saying?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and we have

I mean, we're going to have a brewery process we're going to if we're going to do ethanol, what are we going to do with all that stuff we can feed it to cattle to?

Joe Rogan

Right, but we're when we're talking about scalable when when something scalable and I guess we kind of glossed over the beyond meat thing, we probably should go back to that


Joe Rogan

But is it scalable in terms of the entire population?

Could you?

Is there a like?

What if everybody abandoned veganism if everybody is like, hey, I'm sick, I'm tired of this this is not working for me

Diana Rodgers


Joe Rogan

Where I'm going to go to some sort of sustainable agriculture way of living is that without any factory farming, is that possible for the entire country?

Robb Wolf

One thing I want to bring up is that Diana had went to Southeast Asia at the can

We talk about the Merck deal and all that like antibiotics like I just want to throw that one out there because there's pieces of this system that cannot go on


Robb Wolf

So we use a huge yeah

Joe Rogan

Cannot go on

Robb Wolf

So we use a huge amount of antibiotics

In chicken and pork production, because of the proximity that they

Like you, you can't do industrial chicken without the antibiotic inputs that we have because they're just on top of each other

Merck and some of these pharmaceutical companies recognize this, and so historically like before the 1940s, chicken and pork were a background part of the food system, like pork was fed largely food scraps

Chickens were just kind of a background part of of farms

It wasn't a a main feature

I think it was Herbert Hoover that said something like a chicken in every pot is like a

You know, uh, campaign deal

This was the beginning of the industrialized food system

Joe Rogan

Chickens were expensive

Robb Wolf

We chickens were expensive

Yeah, it was usually beef and lamb and things like that that were the mainstay, but we know for certain that the current industrial food system is broken at the the grain production level because of the damage it does to the topsoil, and it's broken at the animal production level

Because of the damage that it does to

Our our antibiotic defense basically like if if we lose the ability to use antibiotics because of creating antibiotic resistant bacteria, we're all screwed like it, and so Merck is starting to educate folks that produce beef and or pork and chicken that we have to figure out sustainable ways of doing this

And it looks a lot more like Joel Salatin or White Oak

Farms where you're integrating all this stuff, so when people just immediately say, well, does regenerative AG scale?

We definitely need to address that, but like the current system has an expiration date on it

We have to find something else, and in the book and the film we don't lay out specifically, we didn't

We're we're not trying to be future is saying this is the way that this is going to work, but a lot of what we suggest is that food production should be done at a regional level based off the resources and like the knowledge and the culture of the people that are there like

What happens in Nebraska should be really different than what's happening in like Venezuela or something like that

Like you have different resources, different infrastructure, different cultural values, but there should be an integration of plants and animals and the whole thing should probably look a lot more like an early 19th century farm with like good technology inputs than just

Industrial Rd crops is kind of the ultimate thing that I think we take away from it

Diana Rodgers

It does sound like he's dodging, so I did go through the numbers in the book and it does look like we have the land in the US right now to grass finish in a regenerative way

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

All of our beef hurt

Joe Rogan

Before we go on to that, and I do want to talk about that like what it's causing the need for antibiotics specifically, is it the factory setting where everyone is jammed in together?

That's what it is

Yeah, when did that start happening?

Robb Wolf

1940s, you know when we so we had the Haber Bosch process which made industrial ammonia

For firearms and munitions, and then when we got done with that, we're like, oh, this stuff makes amazing fertilizer and it it really is amazing

But it also damages the topsoil, but it it

Produces huge amounts of food like ingrains inks

Joe Rogan

Makes great fertilizer but it destroys the topsoil at the same time

Robb Wolf

Well, it it makes great fertilizer in that you can short term and by short term I mean like maybe a century, century and a half

You can produce a **** load of food

But when we think about our planet, we want our topsoil to last forever like we want to come back 5000 years from now and have this topsoil better

Than what it is today, so there's there's tradeoffs, like in the short term

It's good from a productivity standpoint, and we started getting

Excess food production in a way that we could industrialize things like pork and chicken production by by the inputs of grains and whatnot

Diana Rodgers

And then in and then in the 70s is when it really ramped up with chicken and that's when people started getting like super affordable chicken

Because there was also, I believe it was vitamin D

They realized was a nutrient that these chickens really needed in order to thrive in a factory setting

And then as soon as they figured that out plus the antibiotics, which not only keeps them healthier but actually disrupts their Biome enough to to make them gain weight

Robb Wolf

Oh yeah, that's right

That's right, yeah

Diana Rodgers

And so that those were sort of another couple of magical things

And then in relation to the fertilizer, I just want to mention with the war happening or potential war

We're also running out of fertilizer, so we have to start

Using animals for nutrients because there's just not enough

You have to mine potash and we you, there's just that's already a limited thing to in addition to nitrogen

Joe Rogan

So you mean fertilizer just for monocrop agriculture just for growing corn and soy and all that other stuff that we

Diana Rodgers

The cropland, yeah

Joe Rogan

Grow in massive massive quantities

Robb Wolf

So a lot of the concerns that folks have like damage to waterways from effluent from like you know, CAFO beef production and chicken and all that

It's terrible, but it's also something that if we did more decentralized production we broke this stuff up and we had

Cattle integrated with pork, integrated with chickens and the effluent

You know, their their byproducts, the the feces urine re integrate that into the soil

Historically, that's what we've we did before the industrialization of the food system

This is what people still do in most of the developing world is they have plant animal interactions

Bringing this stuff together

There's certain economies of scale that are really cool with the current system, but it's

It's not like a Ponzi scheme, but I mean it's got an expiration date on it like we are breaking elements of our ecological system by kind of strip mining the the ability to produce lots and lots of food right now

Joe Rogan

Yeah, that's one thing that I always try to say to people that are very plant based centric thinking

I just

Stress on them

How unhealthy for the world monochrome monocrop agriculture is like this?

Completely unnatural like you can grow food

You can grow meat in a very natural way like the polyface farms model Joel Salatin's model, but if you want to feed the whole world with corn and grain

You've got to have these massive fields and you're not going to grow anything else but this one thing in these massive fields

And whenever you do that, you are damaging that ground

Diana Rodgers

And that's what lab that's what goes into lab meat and all

Beyond burger and impossible Foods, they're not using organic products in

I mean they're using

100% Legit Chemical AG to make their products well

Joe Rogan

Well, now this is

It's like one of the most processed things you could ever eat

So all these people that want to eat healthy plant based like if you want to eat like a healthy vegetarian diet, you certainly can

But if you want to eat a healthy vegetarian diet and also pretend that these process things that are filled with

Seed oils and like what exactly is in a fake meat burger?

And how bad are those things for you?

Diana Rodgers

So I mean just on a on a nutrient density level, they've never

I've never seen a full breakdown like they'll say, total protein total fat and it'll line up, kind of

But like the fats coming from soybean oil, not natural, the protein is limiting in the amino acids, but we still have yet to see a full

Nutrient breakdown of all the junk

We put in and of course it's better to eat real meat

Joe Rogan

What is what's the main ingredients of those burgers?

Diana Rodgers

Pea protein is one of them and then

Robb Wolf

I think soy ends up like on the oil front and then also just some of the protein also

Joe Rogan

What if they mixed those burgers in with a branch chain amino acid profile?

Robb Wolf

I mean you

Joe Rogan

Would you do that like have a bodybuilding beyond burger?

Robb Wolf

You could you could be beaten

Diana Rodgers

Know make a lot of money

Robb Wolf

Make a lot of money, you make a

Joe Rogan

Of money, yeah, but you you're you causing inflammation

Are you giving people issues with the seed oils like soybean oil?

That's not necessarily good for you, right exactly

Robb Wolf

Yeah, and and you're still like for every calorie that you consume of that you're not consuming something else

So where are you getting the vitamins?

The minerals the and you know these other

Things in a in a developed world you you could go to your corner store and get vitamins and and do all that

But what's kind of squirrely is that

This whole story has been so tight into climate change, they're really pushing that the developing world adopt this stuff too

And this is 1 interesting area that

Different places in developed world have pushed back because they're like we can't be dependent on this like we have these traditional food systems

And if you

If you make us dependent on the exports of, like your industrial real crop food system, where one we're super dependent and two we we can't afford it, and then the Third Point which Diana really detailed this well in the book

These folks don't have access to like a CVS to go get their B vitamins and their folate, and you know their zinc and their their iron and everything and

The the same deficiencies that underlie a vegan diet looks shockingly similar to what people face when they're in a malnourished state in a developing country 'cause they eat a very starch centric

You know monocrop type of type of diet

That is typically the main deficiencies in there largely arise from a lack of animal foods

Joe Rogan

So when when people talk about the difference between seed oils and there's other vegetable oils that are not bad for you, right?

Like olive oil is not bad for you

Avocado oil is not bad

For you, why?

Why are some corn based oils and seed based oils?

Why are they bad for you?

Diana Rodgers

Just the the ultra processing and the the ratio of omegas in them, and they're polyunsaturated

They're not really supposed to be heated, and so they're very unstable

Create free radicals

Joe Rogan

So if you use them as salad dressing, are they?

Diana Rodgers

OK, I mean, but they've already gone through the high heat process and are rancid, and they just kind of

Add deodorizers so that you can't smell or taste the rancidity really yes, and then they also add coloring to make it look like a butter color, like you notice all the oils that that's not a natural color for canola oil to be

Joe Rogan

Is it white like a clear rather?

Diana Rodgers

Oh, there's an interesting video out there on the the Great Khan Ola and it shows the process of making canola canola oil it's

Joe Rogan

Go to that Jamie

Diana Rodgers

You got that

Joe Rogan

He's got it

Diana Rodgers

I'm I'm

Joe Rogan

The great oil

I'm kanola kanola, so canola oil is

Diana Rodgers

Rapeseed oil that was invented in the 40s to be an industrial lubricant

Joe Rogan

Yeah, the just the name alone is problematic, so these these seed oils, they're they're all rancid when they're stored in this way

Diana Rodgers

They're they're usually go through a very high heat process in order to extract the the fat out of the seed

So just that process alone renders them rancid

Joe Rogan

And if they didn't go through that process, there was there's no way to get the oil out of the seeds

Diana Rodgers

So there's coldpressed, but then

Joe Rogan

OK, like olive oil, some of its

Gold price, right?

Diana Rodgers

Or like grapeseed oil you you might see in a health food store that cold pressed grapeseed oil, but you, I suppose if you were to use it on like salad dressing and not cook it, it might be OK

Joe Rogan

And is that OK?

Diana Rodgers

But it's still not

I mean

There's nothing redeemable about grapeseed oil like and

I'd have to look up the Omega ratio, but you're much better with avocado oil or or just good olive oil

Joe Rogan

So why is avocado oil and veg and olive oil?

Why those good for you?

Robb Wolf

They tend to be high in monounsaturated fat and then relatively low in the Omega 6 fats like they

None of these things have much in the short chain Omega 3 fats

Some people get kind of wrapped around the the axle though, like high oleic safflower oil is typically lower in Omega sixes than all of olive oil is

So just on that Omega 6 Omega three side like it can get a little bit squirrely, but then you have the the additional piece of how was it processed?

Like if it was cold extracted

Then it's probably safer from like an oxidized fat perspective versus if it was heat extracted so it does get a little bit

Complex, and that's where like a good quality olive oil or like butter or lard or tallow or something is just generally safer for most things

The first device

Joe Rogan

Then no worries, then we get to this these fake meat burgers and these fake meat burgers



Joe Rogan

They're using soy oil

And then how are they making it look like meat?

Robb Wolf

I, I mean kitchen chemistry

I mean some of the stuff that Shawn Baker has videos of just kids doing in there

Somebody made a

A pork roast, not a pork roast ham

Somebody did a ham

And when it, I couldn't believe the stuff they put in on the front end, but when they were done and they were cutting it like at it looked like ham in this

Joe Rogan

Really see if

Robb Wolf

Yeah, I mean I, I was super impressed

Joe Rogan

You can find that way

Robb Wolf

They actually commented on like it

It kind of gives me a little gut ache to look at that, but I mean the finished product and this is somebody just doing it in their kitchen and I thought it looked just looking at it from a video

They, if they had real ham and this fake ham, I wouldn't tell

Joe Rogan

This is Sean

Robb Wolf

Tell the difference

Joe Rogan

Sean Baker would be on his Tik T.O.K you

Robb Wolf

Think probably yeah Instagram or Tik T.O.K, yeah

Joe Rogan

He's become a Tik T.O.K celebrity

Yeah how many Tik T.O.K fans does he have?

Robb Wolf

I don't know

I don't know a lot

Joe Rogan

It's amazing they haven't kicked him off

Tik T.O.K is ruthless with kicking people off

Diana Rodgers

It's great with kids

I have two

Teenagers and my son follows

Paul Saladino is now

Also doing that diet like and meanwhile I've been

Joe Rogan

Telling him forever?

Yeah, that's hilarious

That's very funny

Yeah, I see his videos constantly, which is very funny to me

That this is, you know, like this guy with a big knife


Joe Rogan

Eating meat has become ultra popular, but they're like they're brutal with their censorship talk

Just remove removes videos left and right

Just call it hate speech and just yank you off, yeah?

Robb Wolf

Yeah, but I I don't know exactly, but I mean they're going to extract the protein

Some of the fiber they're going to extract the fats from these different things and then you start putting it together in a kitchen chemistry format to make it look

Joe Rogan

Like meat and their blood, like how they're making beet juice

Diana Rodgers

Beet juice?

Joe Rogan

OK, so here it is

Oh wow, that's interesting so

This person is look at his face

Is he doing riding a stationary bike?

Oh God, so they're making this like weird dough with some kind of flour

Diana Rodgers

Probably wheat gluten

Joe Rogan

Yeah, weekly, weekly

So this is going to give celiacs a ******* heart attack

And then what is he doing?

He's like rolling it around

And then wraps it

Robb Wolf

But look at this

One like that

Looks like ham that looks like ham and that's just in this person's kitchen

Joe Rogan

Pretty wild, yeah?

This is

Vegan ham, yeah, but it's amazing

Like the process that's involved in that, like all the kneading and twisting, like when he ties it into knots

He's putting all this stuff in there

Diana Rodgers

And in the film Sacred Cow, when I have Robin Joel Salatin talking about all the inputs that go into beyond burger and impossible burgers, I actually was able to use their own promotional footage

Just with Robin Joel talking about how disgusting the process is and getting this

What did you get?

What did you call?

It. Biological goo

Robb Wolf


Diana Rodgers

Just over their own promotional footage of how what a miracle it is of of these vats, that they've you know

Joe Rogan

Oh, we need to see that is that available online?

Can someone see that the the process of making it beyond burger?

Diana Rodgers

It was just

It was an impossible foods, it's it's

I can look if he can't, it was just the impossible foods like making of impossible foods

Yeah, and The funny thing is is they're only claims, so they can't win on nutrition

They try to win on ethics right?

So they try to say no animal died for this

Joe Rogan

OK, here it is

The making of an impossible burger

Wow, it looks legit

Look at that

It's so

Looks like a burger

There it is

How do they taste?

I haven't had

One I haven't had one

Don't you think you?

Should have one just to comment

Robb Wolf

I could take that bullet I guess

I feel like I should

Diana Rodgers

No, there's there's another one with

Robb Wolf

Take they actually put him in it

Joe Rogan

Oh wait a minute

No, I did have one

I had one my friend CK brought it to one of the shows that Chappelle and I were doing at Stubb's


Do you know if it's one of these?

Joe Rogan

Uh haem the magic ingredient the impossible burger heme he himself

Diana Rodgers

It could be that one because you can see the vats in the background

And you just

Joe Rogan

Anyway, I had one I had a burger that was in it and it just like tasted like a bland burger

It was from some local place that makes some plant based burgers and then some like real burgers

So this is them getting excited about these smash burgers that are made

Look at these guys

This is just like a real burger

Has anybody ever eat them and go?

What the **** is?

This this is not a burger

Why are you feeding me this man?

Robb Wolf

I mean, it's some great kitchen chemistry

Joe Rogan

Wow, look at the fake blog, the Beet juice and then they have to get the flavor profile right?

But basically when you're eating it as a burger?

Then you're eating all the other stuff, the bun

And there's the lettuce and the tomato and the pickle and those you know

Maybe you had a little sauce on there or some ketchup

It's probably easier to get that as a reasonable facsimile

Robb Wolf

With all the other stuff, yeah

Joe Rogan

Yeah, that looks like beet juice

I drink beet juice

Should I drink beaches?

Robb Wolf

It releases nitric oxide like beets and beet juice are pretty legit

Joe Rogan

Really good, like before training right?

Diana Rodgers

But in limited amounts, right?

Because there isn't too much robeats toxic, yes?

Robb Wolf

Yes, yeah, the salicylates in it

Yeah it could give you make your kidneys fail

Joe Rogan

Too much raw beets, so every now and then have a

Robb Wolf

Beet juice I think more like a Oz or something

Joe Rogan

Yeah, it's funny that these people think that they're eating something healthy while they're eating this big *** bread bun

It's kind of funny, right?

It's kind of funny like the the promotion of this as a health food and then you see them eating this fat bread bun

They're like, hey?

Diana Rodgers

So, so they can't really win on health

They've all given up their health claims

Joe Rogan

Have they?

What was the initial health claims?

Diana Rodgers

Pretty much the you know that it's healthier and everything

Joe Rogan

Looks good, I gotta say that looks good

Diana Rodgers

They'll say it's less saturated fat

Joe Rogan

Don't look good Jimmy

Robb Wolf

I mean


Is that is the cheese healthy and watch it

Joe Rogan

Too, I like cheese


Very nice

Joe Rogan

I like cheese

It was probably vegan cheese too

Unfortunately right?

Which is like who knows what that is


It's a lot of whatever it

Joe Rogan

Is it's a crazy burger that's for a glutton who's also a vegan?

Who's 80 stacks of?

Patties on that sucker, but Umm, so you're you're saying like their initial claims that have been invalidated

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so now when I go to their

Websites, I don't see a lot of health claims and and I do know someone who's working on really taking

Those products and comparing them to meet like and breaking it out for vitamins and minerals, 'cause it's just not going to win

But now so their main claims are now carbon, less carbon

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

And completely ignoring all the other

Ecosystem function pieces that monocropping

You know, but at least

Joe Rogan

The damaging aspects of it

Diana Rodgers

It's less

Right, so like in all these you know, United Nations Food Systems Summit

We all have to

Reduce our carbon and everyone is so

Laser myopically focused on just carbon

And that I think really comes from these fake meat companies, because that's the only thing that they

Joe Rogan

Have you know is that a valid claim that production of this fake meat is like pound for pound or reduction of carbon emissions versus animal based?

How so?

Like even the grossest version of animal based agriculture and factory farming

Diana Rodgers

Because most of the greenhouse gases are coming from cattle as part of their digestive system, its methane gets emitted

And after 10 years the methane gets broken into H2O, Water and CO2, carbon dioxide

And it goes back down into the plants. The plants release the O2 in photosynthesis and then the carbon becomes the plant, the roots, and then it can actually store carbon in the ground and then the cow eats the carbon and so it's a cycle. And I actually have a graphic showing that methane cycle versus fossil fuels. So fossil fuels are mining

Ancient carbon from the Earth's core and pumping it straight into the atmosphere

With no

Robb Wolf

It it couldn't be part of a cycle, but it's going to be through plants and animals

Joe Rogan


So we're we're seeing a there's a

Uh, a beautiful

Sort of a chart infographic chart that shows how the carbon from the atmosphere gets converted

Diana Rodgers

Infograph yeah

Joe Rogan

In the methane, it's converted and so a lot of people think it's cow farts

It's actually cow burps that are the big producer of methane, right?

And then it shows the cows carbon cycle meat and milk and how the poop

And this is like that explain this without saying everything on the chart B

And even if

I said it wouldn't work

Diana Rodgers

I have them

I have all these charts at sustainable dish back slash Rogan and people can just take them and share

Joe Rogan

Oh OK, great sustainable dishes your website

OK, So what the difference is when the cows are emitting this map, they were thinking of it as just carbon

Carbon equals bad, but the carbon that they're emitting and the way that this there is a cycle that they're eating this grass they're belching

It goes into the air. It becomes H2O and carbon and then it. The carbon goes back into the ground

It gets into the grass

They eat it again and it goes on and on and on, and it's a normal part of what it means to be a ruminant animal on a planet that has grass, and they eat that

Diana Rodgers

Grass yeah. And so in the US in North America

We don't have more methane emitting animals than we did before we got rid of the bison and the elk and all the other natural ruminants that were already here, and so we don't have a net bigger amount of methane

We just have cows instead of bison and deer

Robb Wolf

And the crazy thing is, even if we did, but it's still part of a cycle to get to the point where the cow is emitting methane yet to pull carbon dioxide out of the air into the plant gets sequestered in the plant until the animal eats it, but it this cyclical part really

And yet Steven Koonin recently like he talks

I think he talked a little bit about the the differences between the cyclical you know pieces of this story versus just mining ancient carbon and and releasing it, but

It it the accounting really needs to be different because the danger that we get into

We discovered recently that shellfish produced huge amounts of methane at termites rice paddies

Like there's all, these biogenic methane sources that then people start freaking out and there was actually some some scientists that were asking, should we eradicate shellfish so that we reduce their carbon footprint and it's like they're suggesting that we

Reduce the amount of life on the planet so that we can protect life on the planet and

It it

Diana Rodgers

Or in Sweden with the moose

Robb Wolf

Yeah Sweden there there there

Diana Rodgers

The Green Party in Sweden wanted to kill all the moose in Sweden because they emit methane

They didn't go through it

Didn't pass, but it was proposed

Joe Rogan

Oh my that's so *****

Robb Wolf

God and this is this carbon tunnel vision where you get so focused on carbon release and you lose the bigger picture of all this other stuff that's going on

Joe Rogan

That is so ***** Kill all the moose because they admit carbon, right?

Diana Rodgers

But that's

Joe Rogan

'cause they admit, methane?

Diana Rodgers

That's what's driving these poor kids in New York to eat vegan school lunches, and I mean

Joe Rogan

So who started all this nonsense?

Where's this? Is it bill?

Gates I think

It bill I'm a I'm

A fan of your operating system, but once I'm

I'm not all bad on you buddy

I think you need better friends but

Diana Rodgers

I mean we we we go into it a little bit, how meat became a scapegoat and

Meat is a very powerful

It's the most powerful food we eat

It's it's it's it's masculine, it's strength

Bloody it like it

It represents a lot of things that you know we used to have sacrificial

Meat is also seen as barbaric and impure and unnecessary and too masculine and so

There's this like deep weird cultural narrative that's really hard to tease out exactly where it all came from initially

I mean, we idealize vegetarian cultures as more purer than ours, and there's a

There's a really great example of that just showing

I have two graphs, 1 showing the ideal diets in the world and then one showing the global malnutrition

And it's interesting how the ideal diets are causing the malnutrition

But we're idealizing them because there's no harm, and it's pure, and it's

All of that, I think

Joe Rogan

So how are the ideal diets causing malnutrition?

Is it from a lack of?

Diana Rodgers

Animal Source foods 100%

Joe Rogan

But is it?

Can they be like this has always been the big debate, right?

Can you have a vegan diet and and be completely healthy?

Can you do it?

Is there a right way to do it like we're talking about adding sustainable or adding amino acids?

You know, adding vitamins, is there a way to do it?

Diana Rodgers

I think it's all if someone is young and healthy already

Probably was raised, breastfed well and and raised on enough, you know

Good nutrition

There does appear to be some people that

Do OK on a vegan diet for a period of time

Joe Rogan

Is there a rough estimate of like what percentage?

Diana Rodgers

I mean, no, I, most vegans, you know, give it up. 85% give it up within three months

And it's usually a health event

It's not ideal, I mean just from a pure

Humans are omnivores and we need the nutrients and animal source

Joe Rogan

Foods I'm reading about this guy was a vegan

It was a vegan for years and he finally decided to he's having all these health problems and he ate a piece of salmon and he said it felt like he was having an orgasm

Yeah, yeah, like he couldn't believe how good his body felt

Diana Rodgers

I read that one

Joe Rogan

Like it's like

It's it's SAC like I hate being the I told you so guy, you know like I hate like I I want people to be able if if they if you don't want any animals to die for your food

And they're going to die anyway, unfortunately

But if you want that, does anybody?

Want coffee or?

Robb Wolf

Anything good good?

Joe Rogan

Because of that, you know you you don't like, I mean it just

It's it's an uncomfortable discussion 'cause so many people are so ideologically connected to this idea that a vegan diet is like better, more calm, free, like healthier

Diana Rodgers

And we're seeing what we're seeing with younger people

Is that health isn't driving it, it's ideology that's driving it, right?

And so they will suffer personally for their ideology, and so they're really clinging onto the carbon story and the ethics story

Joe Rogan

A lot of them become these vegan influencers and then they get busted eating fish

Like that then they get attacked by the community

I've seen that happen multiple times where people were like really suffering and they started eating meat and then people went crazy on them

Robb Wolf

Or there was that piece where if they're out drinking, they have a tendency to snack on, like some burgers

Joe Rogan

Oh yes, oh, that's a giant percentage of vegetarians will eat

Robb Wolf

And yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan

Meat when they're drunk

Robb Wolf

Yeah, you know when we when we set in to do the book and this was a long time ago, we thought that we were going to tackle the ethical part of this thing first

So we cover the health, environmental and ethical considerations of a meat inclusive food system is kind of the big deal

But one of the things that became interesting, Diana really kind of spearheaded the health side of the research is that it becomes really hard to grow a human on a vegan diet

I mean like you look at moms and their nutrient needs and then passing that to the next generation breast milk raising kids like

When you start trying to attack, you know push this thing forward

It's really hard

People can do it, but it's So what?

Joe Rogan

You're talking about when a woman is pregnant

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, yeah, and there's been documented cases of

Robb Wolf

Was it Finland?

Diana Rodgers

Pregnant, what's that?

Robb Wolf

Was it Finland that they they did the interview with the Welt like wealthy Finnish families that were vegan and like they they had really?

Pretty terrible nutrient deficiencies within these folks, and these

They're wealthy

They're educated, they're supplementing

And they weren't able to consistently pull this off, yeah?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, we see babies, so B12 deficiency

Causes permanent brain damage

Or it can

And and B12 supplements. If vegans take the vegan version of the B12 supplement

It is actually

An analogue. It's not real B12 and your your cells think it's B12?

They'll absorb it, but then it it actually blocks real, but it can make your B12

Joe Rogan

It blocks

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, it's a B12 analogue. It's not actually B12, it just pretends to be B12

Joe Rogan

But I thought you can get B12 from algi

Diana Rodgers

It's not true B12 really, yeah?

Joe Rogan

So when you're getting B12 from like blue green algae and spirulina and all that kind

Of stuff like what are you?

Robb Wolf

So it's above my pay grade

I don't know

I I think it's, uh, in isomer

I think it looks

It it may be like the folate needs to be a right hand shape and this stuff is a left hand shape and so it it can plug in and

Joe Rogan

And so is it partially effective, is it?

Diana Rodgers

So there was a documented case of a a vegan breastfeeding mother who was supplementing with B12, and her baby died

Joe Rogan

And she was supplementing that with the vegan form knows that this could be a rare issue with her

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, it could be could

As well, yeah one person, but when we look at general populations

Kids who don't have access to meat are much more likely to be stunted, to have delayed cognitive development, physical development, behavioral problems, and we only have one study that looked at kids with

Meat versus less meat

There's only one randomized control trial

Everything else is like, oh, this population hate me and this one didn't

And these guys got more cancer

It must be the meat, but you know that's you can't like make policy on those observational studies

So this randomized control trials in Kenya, the kids at school that got a meat snack

Did better than the milk group and the over calories group

And that's the only evidence that we have, and so there's no evidence at all that pulling me away from children is going to result in healthier kids

Joe Rogan

Now when you get a standard B12 supplement like non vegan, what is that from?

Robb Wolf

I'm honestly not sure

I don't know if they extract it or if it's purely synthetic I, I think it probably

Joe Rogan

If you get a synthetic version of B12, wouldn't that be sufficient for a vegan to?

Robb Wolf

I I would think so yeah

Diana Rodgers

I know that

That there's non vegan forms of B12 and I

Don't know what it's from

Joe Rogan

But like actually not analog, but actually the actual B12. OK so

When a person is doing that like what what is going on in their body, their body thinks it's B12, so it acts like it's got enough B12 and then it's just not getting it

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, it's Chris Kresser writes about it

I'm going to

Pull up his

Robb Wolf

Study right now

So like for

There's certain toxins that you can do competitive inhibition so that the toxin doesn't get into cells

So it's something that looks like the toxin it it binds to the receptor site

It could keep it out, but it can work both ways, so you can have different nutrients in our body

Like amino acids are like they call it L lysine and L DOPA and whatnot because they're they're left hand shaped you it

If you were to put them together in 3D space, they could have an orientation that's either left handed or right handed

The right handed amino acids by and large aren't biologically active, and so there's a number of things like that that it within the nutrients that

Trying to think of another one like DL phenylalanine like people will use that for chronic pain

It's both the D and the L form

Normally L phenylalanine is the form that we use, but the D form of phenylalanine seems to have some interaction in the brain where it it?

It actually causes some pain reduction, but normally the the D or the R form of of

Those types of nutrients don't really work in our our Physiology

Joe Rogan

One of the things that you hear about a lot lately is the idea of bugs being a viable food source, and that might be a way to get vegetarians or vegans to eat

Like a sort of a living protein source because

There's a lot of vegans that don't seem to give a **** about bugs

It's really interesting

Like I, I lived next to an ashram when I lived in Colorado and I I was visiting this lady who lived at the ashram

We were talking about something and she was spraying bug spray

She was killing Bugs and I was like, hey?

Robb Wolf

What's the story that?

Joe Rogan

You're supposed to be a Buddhist like you're not supposed to be killing bugs, and she's like, well, there's you know certain concessions that we have to make, and we have bugs that

Get in our trash

And I was like, Oh my God, like how do you Europe a murderer like this is like mass scale, slaughter, of of life forms, yeah?

Look at like

We have to make this distinction like what is important

Is it life or is it life with fur?

Is it life that weighs more than a pound?

Is it like like people don't seem to get that upset?

If you kill a bug right, you could kill a bug on you and not even dispose of the body

And no one freaks out, like if you swat a mosquito

You just basically kind of like move your hand a little bit and **** you

It's like small enough that we seem to be OK with that thing, just

Where's the body like?

Where did you put that?

You just murdered a life form?

No one gives a **** but if you stomped on a mouse in front of people, they'd be like what the **** is wrong with you, rob?

Why do you just stomp on that mouse?

That's gross?

Clean that like it gets to a certain level where we decide it's either cute enough or large enough you know, and when it gets to things like a Buffalo

That's why it's large enough so that like that's too big to kill, but that is that equivalent to an Ant because that Lady is out there spraying bugs

Robb Wolf

It matters, yeah

Joe Rogan

She's killing at least a life form

Is that one life form?

That's an Ant?

This tiny little thing is that as valuable to you as a big bison, and if not, why?

Tell me why?

Diana Rodgers

And then, especially if you look at how it's produced, right?

Regenerative AG versus typical monocropping

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

So if you're going to have one cow

That's almost £500 of meat

And if that cow was raised in a way that increased total life underground and above ground and brought all these birds back and everything

That was a life that actually led to more life

Joe Rogan

Yeah, well if you buy corn, you're definitely responsible for some death

There's just no if ands or buts about it though

If you have a mono mono crop field of corn, the only way they're going to keep those animals from eating the corn and to keep you know when when they plow over the corn and they extract it, things are dying

There's just no if ands or butts

Diana Rodgers

About it and then they'll say it

But I didn't intend for it to die

Joe Rogan

I don't know if that's good enough, you know?


Joe Rogan

I mean, if you're like shooting a gun into a crowd and you don't intend for anybody to die

But people die


Joe Rogan

I think you're still responsible for that death

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, it doesn't hold up very, very well

Joe Rogan

Yeah, you don't

You might not be looking where you're pointing the trigger, but I think that this idea of a 0 sum game this this idea of never losing any life

It's kind of crazy, and one thing that people that are proponents of plant based diets really hate is when you bring up plant intelligence

They really hate that they really hate the idea that plants might not just

Have strategies to avoid predation but might have

Real time maneuvers that they do in terms of like changing their chemicals where they changes their flavor profile emitting these

These defense chemicals 'cause they don't want to get eaten, and there's some sort of an intelligence that plant plants not just have, but they have with this symbiotic relationship

Two fungus under the ground and these these mushroom, the mycelium, and the root structures of these plants are sharing resources and they communicate and they it's a really complex system that reeks of intelligence and we don't totally understand it, but we have this thought in our head that if it doesn't

Move then it's OK to kill, even though it's a life form, but we've made this distinction that a plant life it it does not have the same feelings

It doesn't cause pain

It doesn't cause emotional harm

It's not like us, it's as removed from us as possible while still being alive form to the point where we could just

Eat it

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, in order to make a field for a corn or soy also you have to annihilate whatever was there before like whatever forest like you're killing habitat and animals

In order to make room for this monocrop to happen, and then the pesticides and insecticides and all that stuff

Joe Rogan

Too yeah, and just having that kind of a structure where you have this one plant growing in this massive quantity is totally alien to anything that you ever find on Earth in in terms of like I mean, maybe you'll find grass like large grasslands

But then again, the grasslands is sort of like this weird little honeypot where the Buffalo come over and eat the grass and they ****

And then the bugs and the whole thing, and the manure

And it feeds itself

It makes sense there's none of that going on with a monocrop

Soybean well and it

Robb Wolf

It's really not a monocrop too, like there can be dozens or hundreds of different plants in that that grass ecosystem, and they change throughout the

Joe Rogan

True good point

Robb Wolf

Season and yeah, good point

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and the amount of cropland that we have that can actually support that

That has healthy enough soil rainfall or access to irrigation is flat so that you can drive a tractor over

It's actually quite small now bugs

Joe Rogan

Are bugs good for you?

Diana Rodgers

For eating them, yes I have

I mean, I've heard that they are

I don't think my my opinion on like crickets is that it's going to be a great animal feed for like chickens

Don't think

Or maybe a bardar

For for dudes, you know, yeah, like

Joe Rogan

You're talking to the guy used to host fear factor

Crickets are small potatoes

Robb Wolf

Compared to paying you to writing everything

Joe Rogan

Yeah, I mean I've eaten

I ate so much garbage when I was on that

Diana Rodgers

Show, but I don't see them as

Like a regular

Joe Rogan

But they do have their good source of B vitamins, right?

I believe their B12 rich like you could eat like crickets in there. I believe they're a good source

Diana Rodgers

Probably because our animal

Robb Wolf

Yeah, and you know it it it's a little bit even like the cultured meat though, is that you still need an input to feed those critters

And I'm not, I think that they could and probably should play some sort of a significant role going forward

But what is it that we're going to allocate to those critters?

Joe Rogan

You know, grow them here to grow

Robb Wolf

Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan

Feed them with and where you gonna grow them and what kind of how much land do you?

Need to grow crickets also cricket

Diana Rodgers

Farms are disgusting

Robb Wolf

Are pretty nasty

Joe Rogan

Well, why?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, any picture of a cricket farm

They're like these cardboard tenement cities

Joe Rogan

Wow, I've never seen it, yeah?

Robb Wolf

Oh, there's a lot of cricket poop, and if you if you don't right so my daughters got really geeked out because they want to figure out some

Joe Rogan

Is this a cricket farm?

These are cricket farms cricket farm

Robb Wolf

So if you don't manage them, the crickets become cannibals and they

Eat each other

Joe Rogan

Oh Jesus, of course they do monsters

Diana Rodgers

So look at their crawling all over the walls

Joe Rogan

Can you can you show me a video of a cricket farm?

I wanna see what they look like

So when I was in Mexico, we checked into this hotel and they had a bowl of cooked crickets and it's like a a normal snack and my girls were like

Yeah, I'm not eating

How do you?

Joe Rogan

That, oh like I'll eat it

I got one of my daughters to eat it

She ate a cricket

Robb Wolf

We used to get a a cricket protein bar and my girls liked

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, see this

Joe Rogan

It they're kind of salty, so why?

What do you have to do to keep them from eating each other?

Just make sure they have a lot of food

Robb Wolf

It you to make

Apparently it hits some population threshold and then they'll just start

Joe Rogan

Oh God, like nature has a built in safe mechanism to make sure that and so that's them all ground up

Robb Wolf

Killing each other

Joe Rogan

What is that like a cricket cheesecake?

What it?

Diana Rodgers

Looks like a carrot cake

Joe Rogan

Character yeah carrot cake rather oh look

At her she's bold, she sticks

Her tongue out with cricket

On it so

So these are like different kinds of cricket proteins that they've turned these things into and cricket snacks

So look at this poor guy

Why is he got a mask on?

It's because of the pandemic or just chicken smell

Robb Wolf

Probably chicken

Joe Rogan

It's hard to tell right these days like why are they wearing masks?

Robb Wolf


Joe Rogan

Is it because of the pandemic or is it because this is what they do when they?

Work around

Robb Wolf

So these guys are working so they tighten the the shells

Joe Rogan

Cricket ship

Robb Wolf

Like you can get a an allergy to it, kind of like a shellfish allergy, so they're probably wearing it for that, it's it

Diana Rodgers

Oh, isn't it very closely related to shellfish?

Robb Wolf

Yeah, I mean, if you have a shellfish allergy, you

Joe Rogan

Oh, I can speak to this if, as when we were on fear factor, we found out that if you have a shellfish allergy, you are also allergic to roaches

Robb Wolf

Can't can't eat yeah

Joe Rogan

Yeah, we found that out by feeding people roaches

Diana Rodgers

Oh, that's a nice way to find it out

Robb Wolf

And then in EpiPen

Joe Rogan

And they're they're throat seized up and I had to leave the show

Yeah sorry dude

Crickets are anthropoides like shrimp, crabs and lobsters

This means they contain some of the same protein

So individuals who are allergic to shellfish may develop an allergy crickets

Yeah, would have been nice if the people that were run in fear factor ******* ask those folks

But hey, it's a long time ago so

Are they?

What's the protein and the nutrient profile of a cricket?

Is it similar to?

Robb Wolf

An animal I

I think they're really good, you know, like pound per pound

Their conversion of feed into basically nutrient upcycling, I think, is really good

Joe Rogan

Here, look at this

Robb Wolf

It's just

Joe Rogan

Crickets are good source of vitamins, minerals and fiber

In addition to protein, crickets are high in many other nutrients, including fat, calcium, potassium, zinc, magnesium, copper, folate, biotin, pantothenic

How do

That pathetik acid and iron one study found that the iron content of crickets was 180% higher than

That of beef

Diana Rodgers

But you'd have to eat a four ounce

Block of cricket

Joe Rogan

You wouldn't be doing that if you were

Hungry, but if they're good they taste good

Robb Wolf

If you have the right dipping sauce

Joe Rogan

Lobsters taste good

If it's a shellfish thing, right?

Like shellfish, tastes good, right?

Everybody loves lobster, right?

If if they take, I mean, isn't there a?

Way yeah

Robb Wolf

And you know, I think that this is at least some of the questions that we need to ask. Like right now, 50% of the food that we produce globally isn't eaten

It basically gets landfilled and so we could, you know when people start asking about scalability

At a minimum, we should be better about what we do with the food that we have

Like there I forget the name of the outfit, but

Some folks in New Mexico, they have a pork operation and they've made relationships with the local

Grocery stores and restaurants and basically their their food that doesn't get eaten, expired food they send it to the pigs, they autoclave it, they basically sterilize it, and then they feed it to these animals and this would have otherwise just gone into a landfill

We could do this like everywhere and this is part of the problem that we have is because of zoning and because of cultural things like we could produce a lot more food in kind of a regional

Fashion and then be much more efficient with it. We could cut it like 50% of our food is wasted right now. So what if we took 10%?

Joe Rogan

Is that just nationwide or is that really?

Robb Wolf

It's kind of a global global number, yeah, So what if 10% of that got allocated into cricket and mealworm and different things and we use those to produce a possibly vegan acceptable protein source or it gets used to feed the chickens so that they you know there's just a lot of inefficiency there

But there's also a lot of like cultural change that needs to happen to make some of those things more

More acceptable

Joe Rogan

This is sort of unrelated, but there was a guy who ate bad Chinese food

It was like leftover Chinese food


And to get amputated stuff

Joe Rogan

Yeah, he his body went septic

He had to get his legs amputated, his feet amputated

The photos are absolutely horrific, it was just some, some leftover food that apparently it was sitting out

Maybe something and bacteria got in it and he ate it and within hours

Afterwards, his body was going septic, like in it's he has these lesions all over his body

Wait till you see this is so crazy

I've never seen anything like this from eating food

I thought if you ate bad food you just get diarrhea and you throw up and need a food

Robb Wolf

Apparently he got

Joe Rogan

Poisoning really

The pension

Joe Rogan

I mean, I've I've had food poisoning

I'm sure you guys have as well, right?

It's gross, it's it makes you feel terrible

Robb Wolf

Was it like Botulism?

Did he get Botulism from it or no?

Joe Rogan

I I can't I don't know you find it


There's a lot of stories trying to financial pictures

Joe Rogan

The New York Post one is the best 'cause they have the all the juicy photos 'cause you know how the New York

Post does

It classy

Yeah, it's classy as it gets and like it's so crazy

Oh now this isn't the same one

This is no, it's Chinese food, it's he

It's very recent


In New York Post did it come up?

That, uh

Joe Rogan

Just Chinese food Google Chinese food


Well, there's noodles

Joe Rogan

Yeah, but just Google leftover

It's our new story bro

It's like leftover Chinese food



Of these stories are that story


It's just


Not the New York Post one

Joe Rogan

Oh why would they showing a spaghetti bowl?


Then I don't that


That's particular


One went to the


Wrong one, I don't know

Diana Rodgers

It looks like Maine

Joe Rogan

I don't know

I know I have it on my phone because I sent it to somebody


Same thing the New York Post one didn't pop up. It gave me a different story from 2019

Joe Rogan

I wonder if they they took it down

Robb Wolf

It's too gnarly

Joe Rogan

I don't think so


Like something I have specifically New York Post, but it's not

Robb Wolf

Oh, there it is

Joe Rogan

Alright, just try to find 1

Diana Rodgers

There is


But that's not that's not the correct

Joe Rogan

One well, try the one right right there, try that one

Let's see if it it has the images


And none of the other ones


Are having the images is the problem?


I'm kind of

Happy with that


I was doing a lot of clicking really fast and I wasn't


Finding anything with the images, I'm good

Joe Rogan

Man is like


I can go to images on

Joe Rogan

Yeah, let's go to images


Here and


I'm sure it'll come up

Joe Rogan

It's just noodles, they're just showing noodles, that's unfortunate

Anyway, second, I found it and it it was a

It was horrific

This guy had like his feet were like a gross multi colored thing and it's all of his skin and it was just from it going septic from bad food

Robb Wolf

How bad did that smell when he ate it like I mean, how bad does it have?

Joe Rogan

It might not have smelled bad

I mean, I'm having you had food poisoning

Robb Wolf

To be bad

Oh yeah

Joe Rogan

It didn't smell bad


Joe Rogan

Patient had a rapidly evolving diffuse reticular purplish rash on the face, not shown

Joe Rogan

Chest and abdomen, arms and legs, so his whole body was covered in these horrible purple lesions

And barely made it

I mean, it's really, really rough when you see it

It's horrible

And so let's go to the top of it

So like figured out what happened

OK, so the patient had been well until 20 hours before this admission

This is crazy when diffuse abdominal pain and nausea developed after gate, rice, chicken and LogMeIn leftovers from a restaurant meal

Multiple episodes of emesis so the word emesis occurred with vomitus that was either Billy

Robb Wolf

Throwing up

Joe Rogan

What are they trying to do to be here?

Billious or red brown?

The abdominal pain and vomiting were followed by the development of chills, generalized weakness, progressively worsening diffuse

My ologists my al, is that right?

Malgus chest pain, shortness of breath, headache, neck stiffness, and blurry vision

Five hours before this admission

Purplish discoloration of the skin developed and a friend took the patient to the emergency department of another hospital for evaluation

Upon arrival, the emergency department of the hospital 4.5 hours before this admission, the patient reported diffuse myalgias. The scale of eight to 10, including indicating most severe pain on examination

Beard pale, anxious, and moderately distressed, he answered questions appropriately and was oriented to person, place, time and situation

OK, blood specimens were obtained. Complete culture content approximately 40 minutes after the patient's arrival

Da da da during 30 minutes Tak Tak E Fina, worsened and labored, breathing hypoxemia

Sionne sisters, a lot of ******* medical terminology here

Supplemental oxygen was administered so he was like fading fast

Resulting in oxygen saturation of 83%. Oxygen was administered through a high flow nasal cannula at the rate of 40 liters per minute. Wow, so this is oh, this is a medical thing. Is a medical journal. It's talking about this

Robb Wolf

It it never really says they they did cultures on it, but it didn't say what he

Came back with

Joe Rogan

He smoked 2 packs of cigarettes weekly

That's not a lot smoked marijuana daily, hala, and drank 2 alcoholic beverages of pot approximately 2 times per week

Robb Wolf

Crazy OK, no more Chinese food

Joe Rogan

Well, it's not that


I think I read of another friend


I think I read of another friend ate it too, but he didn't get as sick


He just had like a little stomach ache and this kid went the other way with it

Joe Rogan

Oh wow, I don't know


I think I read that it's not saying that


In here I


Don't think but

Joe Rogan

Oh wow, I read it initially that dude's got bragging rights

I'm here

Robb Wolf

That's all he's got left

Should they cut everything else off?

Joe Rogan

You know the other guy, the other guy, the guy?

That didn't get

Robb Wolf

That's right

Joe Rogan

Cut by the guy that also ate it but didn't

Really get sick

Right, you know when he's

Wheeling his friend around

Remember, I eat the same food

Bro stuff are horrible

Horrible joke, so do you think that that there is a future where people can have this sort of?

This, you know, this philosophy of having a plant based diet is like to do the least amount of harm

Now, if you had some sort of a organic back garden diet and you lived off of your garden, that's probably the most karma free, right?

If you just want to eat plant based foods and then you have crickets for your protein

Diana Rodgers

It depends on where you live because

In most of the country you can't grow year round, so



Diana Rodgers

It gets tricky and I think if we're talking about least harm and one of the things like Rob was starting to say with you know everyone likes to lead with these ethics arguments

I want to do least harm, and so we were going to lead the book with ethics

But my

Thinking was that you have to fully understand the nutritional implications of like pulling meat away from people who really need it, and then you have to understand the environmental argument of like

What monocrop agriculture is and all that kind of stuff to then understand the ethical to to have like an intelligent ethical debate

You can't just say it's

Joe Rogan

OK, so when we're talking about nutrients and we were talking about the impossible burger and beyond burger and stuff like that

So they don't really claim that it's better for you nutritionally anymore they

Diana Rodgers

Not so much

I mean there you know there's new crazy studies come coming out saying that you should limit your red meat to 0 if you want to live

Joe Rogan

They imply it

Diana Rodgers

But those aren't

This is going to

Get reversed

Joe Rogan

Those are going to be exhausting though, 'cause you're going to have to talk to somebody that have read those studies

They're going to stick in your face

Yeah, I have a friend who's overweight who's a vegan who's like to claim that I'm going

To have a heart attack, I'm like bro

Look at you

This is so crazy like you

You can't be healthy eating whatever you're eating is not good

Diana Rodgers

And I think for a healthy, you know 25 year old athlete or whatever they want to be vegan. That's fine as a mom and a dietician. I have a big problem with

Disadvantaged kids being

Meat being pulled away from them as policy for virtue signaling

Joe Rogan

For sure, but as an athlete, when an athlete is a young, healthy athlete and they're eating a vegan diet, do you think they're leaving something on the table in terms of like the nutrition that they could be getting and the performance that

They could be getting

Robb Wolf

Totally, yeah

Joe Rogan

It seems like it seems like it right?

Like I don't I'm not aware

Of any top of the food chain LeBron James type people that are vegans

You know, like when you look at it elite athlete

You know Canelo Alvarez, like someone, is at the very top of their game

You know, I don't really see any of them that I'm aware of that are vegans

Doesn't mean it's not possible, but I mean, I don't know of any

Who's the best in their field?

That's a vegan

Do you know of any?

Are there any soccer players that are?

Robb Wolf

I'll hand, I don't

I mean, there's always this

This piece too of could they have been better?

You know, maybe they are riding vegan

Or maybe they could have been better with kind of a mixed diet

You know, it's always a tough one

It does seem like you know, like the the Game Changers movie

Like all the athletes, they kind of detailed in that thing

They everybody went retrograde after they they went vegan like the the strongman guy got injured a bunch and kind of retired like everybody that they had in there

Joe Rogan

Strongman guys a tough case because that guy is chock full of steroids

Robb Wolf

Kind of yeah

Joe Rogan

There's just no if ands or butts about it

I mean, that's a that's a steroid up business

You know when you're when, unless they're testing people on a regular basis and there's there, I'm sure there's some that do get tested when you're dealing with those guys that are just enormous human beings that are lifting the most amount of way possible

A lot of those guys

Robb Wolf

Around the juice and that can

Paper over a lot of other stuff

Joe Rogan

It's it's hard to say like what's?

Robb Wolf

Yeah, yeah

Joe Rogan

Really going on then, right?

Diana Rodgers

Well and also with these athletes

They're genetically gifted, period, right?

Like they can probably get away with eating a lot of fast food and be

Pretty a lot healthier than me, you know

So I think you know when you're already starting with

Like the ideal specimen of human

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

And then if they give up plans for or meet for six months, it may not have the same impact as somebody who

Has already damaged guts or an autoimmune disease or as an older person or as a developing kid who needs you know to grow so

Joe Rogan

There's been some football players that went vegan right that were like elite football players, but didn't one of them just kept getting injured after he went vegan

Yeah well, why would you get it?

Is it lack of protein?

Do you?

Think like what would I think?

Robb Wolf

Just globally you are consuming less nutrients and definitely the protein piece is a big deal and then if you aren't recovering the same way like do you track heart rate variability, do you ever?

Joe Rogan

Do when I wear that whoops route

Robb Wolf

Yep Yep Yep, so like if

What's a cool insight with HRV?

Is that if you're sleeping well on your your total stress load, your allostatic load is low comparatively

Then you've got more resources to put into recovery, but if you're eating a diet, whether it's junk food or or what have you, that is

Causing some degree of stress that is not providing the fundamental building blocks, then more energy has to be allocated to get you back to square one again

So this is where like optimizing sleep and nutrition and gut health and all these things

Really it is something that if you make money from your physicality, like it behooves one to do that because you want to put

Every bit of recovery you know juice into that process because it gets you back in

You can train harder, train more often, so that's where I could see

Like the soft tissue injuries and stuff like that starting to

Be a problem

Joe Rogan

But it's it's kind of guesswork

When a football player gets injured because it's kind of an injury sport, it's a sport

There's so much

Joe Rogan

It's it's you would be really cherry picking if you said

This is why you got injured, right?

So back to this burger thing

So the burger has soybean oil, pea protein, beet juice

And what else is in there?

Robb Wolf

That's I think those are the main

Joe Rogan

And then they what kind of malarkey are they doing to glue it all together?

Robb Wolf

I mean, we saw again like pretty impressive stuff, just with what the person did in the kitchen making the the ham, you know

Joe Rogan

Well, that would that look nasty honestly

Robb Wolf

But looked like damn at the

Joe Rogan

It did look and it looked ham ham like, but the burger looked pretty damn good with the cheese, right?

Robb Wolf

End, you know?

Yeah him yeah

Joe Rogan

Top of it

It was looking all

Greasy, yeah, that looked pretty good

Diana Rodgers

So it's soy protein concentrate coconut oil sunflower

Joe Rogan

Pokémon all is good for you, right is not

Good for you, yeah

OK, so there's something good for you. Ingredient #2 is good for

Diana Rodgers

You sunflower oil potato protein

Joe Rogan

Is that good?

Diana Rodgers

I don't eat

You need to eat 10 potatoes to get the protein that you can get in 4 ounces of beef

Robb Wolf

And and just really quick on that, what do you need to do so if they're marketing this as like a sustainability feature?

How much energy goes into?

Raising a potato it, you know

Bunch of potatoes

Then you process them

Extract the protein out so it can be put into that

Joe Rogan


Robb Wolf

This is where you know, like the what they call a life cycle analysis and they did do that between like white oak pastures and and the impossible burger and white oak pastures ended up having a lower carbon footprint

And again, that's not the whole story, but there there's

Other pieces to it, but

Joe Rogan

I'm sorry white oak pastures in comparison to two

Diana Rodgers

Beyond burger and impossible burger

Joe Rogan

So this is compared to factories or

Diana Rodgers

Their their their burger, the the process of creating

Joe Rogan

From the ground

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, a life cycle is like a cradle to grave study where it's the whole

Joe Rogan

So they're following all the plants that can be converted into seed oils and all the all the jazz

Diana Rodgers

That I mean

There's probably limitations on how far back in the supply

I know that they didn't go into some of the mined minerals that they need for

You know all the vitamins and minerals you know, like they didn't go that far

But pretty far

Joe Rogan

And what was the result?

Robb Wolf

The white oak pastures ended up being net carbon negative, so it's pulling more out of the environment than what it's putting in throughout their whole process

And this includes the composting and the the inclusion of like their chicken and pork like

It's the whole operation

Joe Rogan

Now is this pound for pound like?

How do they do this?

Robb Wolf

Is it I believe so

It was

It was literally like a pound per pound comparison, yeah?

Joe Rogan

A pound for pound from a regenerative farm, pound for pound for beef and chicken and whatever they grow

Whatever animal based protein versus this plant based stuff that there's more carbon being emitted from the plant based stuff and the production of and it's worse for the environment

Robb Wolf

Yeah, and in funny it it was kind of weird, but I think it was literally the same number but the opposite direction

It was like you had to eat 1 white oak pastures burger to nullify the carbon footprint of 1 impossible burger like it was like 4.6 or something like that. Yeah yeah, yeah

Diana Rodgers

I think it's yeah 3.5 or something like that, so it's a it's a grass fed beef farm in Georgia

Joe Rogan

So in terms of harm to the environment, that's so that, at least from a regenerative farm, a regenerative farm like white oak pastures

And how do white oak pastures run their thing?

They run it like polyface farms and like that kind of deal

Robb Wolf

Very simple yeah yeah

Joe Rogan

Yeah, now we were talking earlier about sustainability, like the ability or scalability, rather the ability to do that for the entire country

Is that really possible?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so I I consulted some of the top experts in this area when I wrote the book and we went through the numbers and if we

If we look at the underutilized grassland that we already have, so there's a lot of like BLM land or Forest Service land that's just not being grazed

There's farmers being paid through the CRP program to actually leave their fields fallow

So if we if we

Look at regenerative agriculture as actually being way more efficient than

Typical grazing and I put that at 30% better, but most farmers will tell you I have four times

You know more animals on my property because my soil is so fertile and the grass is so healthy

So I did go through the numbers for the US and it does look like we have

The land to finish 'cause remember all cattle start on grass so it's really just those last three months that we're looking to finish where we're looking to take them

It takes longer, but it's the three months that would be in a feed lot

To then finish them on

Joe Rogan

Grass, but to finish them on grass

Diana Rodgers

It would take longer than three months, but but we're not looking at the entire life of the cow is not spent in a feed lot

Joe Rogan

OK, but when you're saying feed lot, are you saying when you are they feeding them hey are they feeding the grass or they feeding them?

Diana Rodgers

Grain, so add a feed lot

They're getting like a ration of corn of mashed up

Right, you know corn stalks from the ethanol industry, so they're getting like like food scraps that we can't

Joe Rogan

And this is the fatten them up

But what about pure grass fed, which is supposed to be supposed to be the most healthy, correct?

Is that debatable?

Diana Rodgers

It yeah it is actually

Robb Wolf

This is one of the things that gets us in a lot of trouble

Like we, we started with a bunch of assumptions and one of the assumptions was that

Pastured meat is nutritionally superior to conventional meat and we

I mean we

We turned over every study that you could find in this thing and what what you find is that pastured meat has a little bit more Omega threes than conventional meat

But if you're looking at just the Omega threes, you need to eat like 8 pounds of meat to get as much Omega threes as what you get out of, like 3 ounces of salmon

So it's not the place to look for that and

Pastured dairy is far more nutritious than conventional dairy wild caught

Seafood is far more nutritious

Eggs are far, far more nutritious

But it's this weird thing like it would have been so nice if just pastured meat was like

Nutritionally superior, we could have like

Had this, you know, soup to nuts story on this thing

We even hired an independent researcher person with a PhD in nutritional biochemistry and we just said hey do a compare and contrast of conventional meat and grass fed meat

We want to know their nutritional profile

We didn't give this person any of our information and they arrived at exactly the same thing

But we have people really

Angry at us

But they did

At the end of the day, the crazy thing is even when you're putting things like corn stalks and weird things like that into cows, they make they're so good at upcycling nutrients that meat is just ruminant meat is super, super nutritious, and I think that the ethical argument for grass finishing is strong

I think the environmental

Argument is strong

There may be a case for like bioaccumulation like things like like phosphate and stuff like that

Diana Rodgers

I looked at those two

Robb Wolf

But that's separate from it and and I don't think it's as compelling a a thing is what most people would think, but just nutritionally like vitamins, minerals, you know, proteins, essential fats, essential amino acids

There's just not that big of a difference

Joe Rogan

Why is it look so different 'cause it's a darker red meat and I would assume?

Diana Rodgers

It's leaner

Robb Wolf

It's definitely leaner

Diana Rodgers

So finishing on corn marbelize, is it?

Joe Rogan

So that's the only difference in terms of the color

It's just a lean thing

Diana Rodgers

Yeah so yeah

Joe Rogan

Because I was assuming it was like a nutrient density thing

Well, it's kind of nutrient dense because there's more of the actual meat versus fat for sure

There is a benefit to the fat from me as well

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, that's a nutrient too

Joe Rogan

So there is probably some benefit to a fatty piece of meat that is grain finished

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, I mean it has more calories, so it just depends on what your goals are, but it's

Joe Rogan

Versus even grass, right?


Diana Rodgers

Not bad

Joe Rogan

It's not bad, so the Omega threes is the only big issue, but you really should get that from salmon


Diana Rodgers

Anyway, yeah, I mean, it's like saying an organic carrot has three times the protein

No one is eating carrots for protein

Joe Rogan

Right, got it?

Got it so

So if we were doing that and you're trying to feed the entire country, how much more of an impact does the methane from the cows burping, and how much more of an impact is it in terms of the amount of animals that you have to move around in terms of transportation and the fossil fuels that are emitted through that?

Diana Rodgers

So ironically, I'm going to Brazil next month to speak at a cattle conference, and they are actually having to go more towards feedlots because they're getting so much pressure to reduce their carbon emissions

And so when you finish a cow on a feed lot, it's faster, and so the cow is not alive as long

And so they're emitting less methane, so it's actually

This one company, it's actually they're being pressured to go the feed lot route

Robb Wolf

And and this is that carbon tunnelvision where they're missing all the other

Externalities that could be beneficial around the pasture process, like you can reverse desertification

The ground holds more water

It doesn't create as much of a heat footprint

You get carbon sequestration

You have all the other ecosystem benefits

But this is where like this kind of neurotic focus on just greenhouse gas emissions

Absent this bigger picture, you start making dumb decisions and we're making decisions at a global food policy level that are are potentially going to be really injurious, like what they're doing in that that process then, and I think

They're looking just at the

The emissions are coming from the animals in that case, but then what about all of the infrastructure that's necessary to get the grains to feed to the animals?

And what's going on with that?

And I think when we do these full lifecycle analysis like what we do with the white oak farms

Usually the pastured process wins

But you have to be willing to accept that

That is part all that greenhouse gas emissions is part of a cycle

That stuff that's in the atmosphere today is going to be part of a plant at some point, and you know then part of an animal and and on and on

Joe Rogan

Now when you're talking about the amount of cows that you would need to feed the entire country, like what kind of a quantity of meat are we talking about, per capita or per person?

Diana Rodgers

So right now, Americans eat about 2 ounces of beef per person per day and about twice that much chicken

So we're really not eating like too much meat

Everyone thinks that Americans are sitting down to a tomahawk steak every night, and it's just not true

You know we're going to get our protein from different sources, so I'm not saying we all need to be carnivores

And you know then you have this other dilemma of the carrying capacity of earth for humans, which gets really dicey when you even start talking about that

So we we don't talk about that, but you know, do you want healthy humans or do you want human feed to just have the largest number of humans possible?

Joe Rogan

Right, right so 2 ounces of beef a day does not sound

Like a lot

So, but if you want people specifically to live on this diet like I'm living on like if that

If this is something that people adopt now you're talking about many times more

How much is is that sustainable?

That seems like no

Robb Wolf

I don't know, like I I don't know where that carrying capacity pops in and I don't know it

It's interesting, you know how much of that could be supplemented with seafood

How much of that gets out?

Like if we start integrating like the pork and the chicken and making that whole bio dynamic and not as as impactful

How much of that could be offloaded into like?

Insect proteins like

Joe Rogan

But if everybody ate like Sean

Baker we'd be ******

Robb Wolf

Probably would be some problems

Probably some problems

Joe Rogan

Well, I mean

Robb Wolf

Yeah, yeah

Diana Rodgers

We also we're exporting all the organ meats to other countries

We're not doing a very good job of of eating those

Robb Wolf

And there's a

There's a flipside to this

Is that as as a culture we're super unhealthy

So like there was a Congressional Budget Office

Study back in like 2005 that was suggesting that by like 20 thirty 2035 the US is bankrupt from diabesity related costs like we will we have more costs dealing with diabetes than what we?

We have GDP and I don't know what kovid is done to that whole projection and and whatnot, but it

Joe Rogan

Just diabetes

Robb Wolf

Just diabetes alone and this isn't even looking at like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and all these other metabolically driven diseases

And if there's one thing that although I guess it's still controversial, but there's, there's one thing that there's at least a little bit of synergy out in the world

People like Layne, Norton and and whatnot kind of sign off on this

If people under eat protein, they tend to overeat calories beyond that

Who knows?

Joe Rogan

Looks like you're working

Yeah, I saw you

Robb Wolf

And so whether you eat higher carb or lower carb, if people eat adequate protein, they tend to not overeat

The other stuff if you under eat protein then you tend to overeat

All the other things and this is probably the

The big driver of of this illness so

What do we do about addressing the health and health care issue in all this, you know, like in some ways we can't

Not we can't afford not to address this in some effective way because we have to figure out like a

A global public health food policy that's going to allow people to spontaneously reduce calorie intake, or

We we end up with this kind of global control of the food system and you go to buy meat and it's you know it's like a social credit score thing

It's like, sorry comrade, you've already got your protein allowance for the month

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and then I looked into also the

Joe Rogan

So it's time to debug, yeah?

Diana Rodgers

The carbon footprint of diabetes

Robb Wolf

Oh yeah, with all the medical tubing and

So you've got

Robb Wolf

It's easy

Diana Rodgers

Amputations, you've got dialysis, all the plastics involved in dialysis

I mean so, but that shouldn't that be factored into?

Junk food, you know?

If we're if we're complaining about like methane from

Joe Rogan

I guess it has to be if how many people are gonna bankrupt the country from diabetes

Robb Wolf


Joe Rogan

I mean if that's real

I I had no idea that I thought diabetes was fairly rare

OK, here the staggering cost of diabetes

2.3 times greater healthcare costs for Americans with diabetes $327 billion. The annual annual cost of diagnosed diabetes in America more than 34 million Americans have diabetes. Holy ****

Diana Rodgers

And that's just diagnosed, right?

'cause there's so many more people on their way

Joe Rogan

More than 88 million have prediabetes

Diana Rodgers

Oh, there we go

Robb Wolf

Food, so you're almost at half the population

That's either pre or diabetic

Joe Rogan

That is, but

It's a third essentially, but that's still a lot of ******* people

Robb Wolf


Joe Rogan

One in three is either diabetic or pre diabetic

That's nuts. What if we found out that the obesity rate in America was like 40% right? Wasn't it something like that?

Diana Rodgers

If you add overweight and obese at 70%

Joe Rogan


Wow, see that is something that you know

Obviously this is anecdotal, but you know, Jordan Jordan Peterson was one of the first guys that I knew that got on that carnivore diet and he lost 40 something pounds

He looks amazing and it's just like he's completely slim and lean and he just eats nothing with steak like

There's something about eating meat where you get satisfied easier

When I'm eating meat by itself

I'll you know, I'll eat a steak and I'm fully satisfied, but if you give me a steak and pasta, I will eat

I will eat that steak, and then I'll eat the **** out of that pasta and I'm somehow another still hungry

I see I keep digging in there wherever it was steak

It was another steak

There I'd stop and I'd, you know I'd put it in the fridge

But I can't stop

Eating when it's pasta or bread?

Yeah that buffet

Robb Wolf

Effect is is interesting where if we get more food

Yes, and eat more more things

When I was on the show last time, we looked at that Adam Rickman, man versus food and he did this kitchen sink sundae challenge

I think we watched this this thing, but he had to eat at 8 pound ice cream sundae and he's motoring through this thing he gets maybe 15 minutes into it and then he just starts visibly turning green

And like starts gagging

And he's not going to make it

And he asked the the waitress in this place to get him a a giant plate of salty crunchy French fries and he would eat a couple of French fries and then a little bit of ice cream and a little bit of French fries

But because he was able to go back and forth and change the palette experience, his brain didn't tell him to stop

So the only way he would have thrown up, he would have failed

Eating that ice cream sundae without eating like 2000 calories of

French fries, which is just crazy, it's

Diana Rodgers

And then

Robb Wolf

Yeah yeah, but there he

Joe Rogan

Weird weird tricks

You have to play in your brain

Oh yeah, here we go

Joe Rogan

Is yeah, look at him

He looks so much different now since he doesn't do that show anymore

He's all like normal size

Robb Wolf


Joe Rogan

Like that guy must have been killing himself

I mean just killing himself doing that show

8 pounds of ice cream is absolutely nuts

That is so

Bad for you

Robb Wolf

And it's orange Sherbert at the bottom

I mean good God

Joe Rogan

No, it's good right now he's getting after it

Yeah, so your body has this weird thing

If you just eat protein like when I eat like steak and eggs in the morning, I'm very

Diana Rodgers

Satisfied, yeah, so we're in this horrible place where people are saying, but it's unsustainable

And so

So that's why we

Joe Rogan

Well, I think we've proved it is

Diana Rodgers

Well, so you have to you have

To start with, what is the ideal diet and how can we produce that in a sustainable way?

But all the other groups are saying look at our broken AG system

What's the most sustainable food and how can we convert that into human feed?

Joe Rogan

Well, they're not even just doing that

It seems like they're playing funny games with the numbers

Like where they are

They're not being honest about the environmental impact

They're not being honest about the nutritional footprint

They're not being honest

About any of these

Things they just want this ideology promoted, which is that meat is bad for the environment

Meat is bad for the

I mean I see that everywhere and then people say it on Twitter

They say it's like it's just this like cold statement, they just say

Meat is bad for the environment, like what?

Kind of meat like what are you saying in what way?

Like yeah, is are you saying like those pig farms where they leave lakes of sewage?

Yep, I'm with you

That's bad for the environment when they have these horrific factory farm conditions where they're all packed in next to each other and they ship through the bottom of their cage

'cause it's a great

And it goes into this this big swampy sort of lake of sewage

Yeah, that's terrible, but if you're talking about like what Joel Salatin does

No, my thing is though

You're not going to get everybody to listen right?

Diana Rodgers

We haven't had anybody listen like like and I used to work at NPR

Joe Rogan

When people say that

Diana Rodgers

I have friends there they want to

Touch this story

Yeah, I know people at New York Times they wouldn't

Joe Rogan

That's a thing, right?

Robb Wolf

Well, Netflix was super interested in her in the film

Diana Rodgers

They flew me out

Robb Wolf

And got like right to the 11th hour, 59th minute and then somebody was like, oh **** like we can't. We can't sign off on this so

Joe Rogan

Meanwhile they have the most wacky documentaries that are so full of **** on so many different things right on UFOs and Bigfoot

And ******* you know, the origins of currency

Netflix got some wacky **** so does iTunes

I went to the other day I was at home

I had a rare day off so I just went through the documentary section of iTunes for a goof or Apple TV

And it's like what kind of ******* ********* are you people selling?

And you won't sell this

It's my what I was going to say though

Is like you're not going to

There's certain people that are just

Headline readers, and that is a headline reader statement that meat is bad for the environment

This is a thing, it's

Diana Rodgers

It aligns so perfectly with so many other narratives today too, so it's just all

Joe Rogan

Also, that are just headlines, you know

And there's

This really weird tendency to ignore facts that are contrary to what you've already espoused and believed in, and this is one of them

And once you've already said publicly multiple times, meat is bad for the environment and animal based diet is bad

Plant based diets are the only diet that reverses heart disease

They like to say that one

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so like

I'm in a suburb outside of Boston and everyone

The more environmentally conscious, right, they're educated

Joe Rogan

It's a mess

Diana Rodgers

And of course

Joe Rogan

Poor people

Diana Rodgers

Of course they don't eat meat

None of them eat like or they're cutting down, or they're flexitarian

Joe Rogan

Not other people near you, and they're all tying

They're all exhausted

Yeah, they all look like **** That's what's weird

I mean obviously not in some of them look great this you're going to run into that vegan soul jacked so bro, I'm a vegan

I'm ******* hell to **** like


Touché you're one of the rare ones

Joe Rogan

You're a ******* Unicorn pal

Robb Wolf

But it is tough because it's such a airtight

Beautiful story, you know

If if you don't eat meat you'll live forever

You'll be skinny

Joe Rogan

That's heart disease, yeah?

Robb Wolf

You'll be ethically superior

You're saving the planet, I mean sign me up, it sounds great

Joe Rogan

The ethnicity, superior parts people love that one people huff that one

'cause the social media social media is just

It's such a great place to espouse your virtue, right?

You know that if you can, you put that little plant thing next to your your bio and then put your pronouns

Underneath that, you're

Robb Wolf

Off and running

Joe Rogan

Nice, you got a solid pro, you know

Solid bio there

Robb Wolf

And then what we're?

Suggesting we don't even have like a solid endpoint other than

Mainly we we make the recommendation that

As to the greatest degree possible, decentralized the food production system and depending on where we

Joe Rogan

How so when you say that what?

Robb Wolf

Do you mean by that?

So people in Nebraska should probably be doing things different than people even in Texas?

And and I'm not in that crew where people get all bent out of shape that lake and avocado is going from Mexico to Canada during the winter

Like I don't care about that

I do think that

More of our food should probably be eaten

Locally but

If we produce more food locally where we have much more efficiencies generally, and then a lot of these environmental problems like the the lakes of like steaming pig **** and stuff like that should just be worked back into the farm we we shouldn't be poisoning waterways

This would stop, why?

Joe Rogan

They shouldn't be growing pigs that way

Robb Wolf

The pig should be integrated into the whole system the way that we did about 100 years ago

Joe Rogan

But don't you need a vast swath of land to accomplish something like that?

Robb Wolf

Not necessarily because you, you don't need to always do mega scale and it

This is some of the stuff that we're going to have to

Come to terms with also

So like in the UK, there was an experiment where they they put in hedgerows, around the the regular

You know conventional farms that they had but the hedgerows allowed

For these predatory birds and and insects to have somewhere to hang out and then they would get in and and eat the the the bugs that would you know cause problems with the you know like the weed or the

Corn or whatever

So there was a decrease in the total amount of harvest that they had because some of the farm was allocated these hedgerows

But then the amount of insecticides and herbicides and whatnot that they had to use were dramatically decreased

Joe Rogan

Ah, I see

Robb Wolf

So we have to start putting what our values are like

Markets are really good at optimizing things, but we're not

We're not telling it currently what we've asked it to optimize is make as much cheap food as possible, and we've crushed that

Like we, we've we've crushed it. I think it was 2006, 2007 became the first year somewhere around there that more humans started dying from

And over eating than under eating and and infectious disease like chronic disease outstripped infectious disease and and lack of food as the main cause of

Joe Rogan

Death that's interesting 2007

Robb Wolf

So somewhere, somewhere around that point, nobody you know

Joe Rogan

It's the tipping point

Robb Wolf

But a big

Joe Rogan

It's kind

Robb Wolf

Of a tipping point, but it's a really important point in history

But we crushed that imperative

We produce huge amounts of calories, but now it's to the point that people are so sick that we're crippling our health care system and people are unhappy and

Joe Rogan

'cause what I was getting at in terms of sustainability is that if you have a pig farm that is a factory farm pig farm, you're raising thousands of pigs on a relatively small footprint you

Diana Rodgers

What you need is more smaller farms with some some pigs, and you need people to you need not 5 corporations to own the supply chain

Robb Wolf

Spread out

Joe Rogan

But this is a bigger problem

What I'm saying is like if you run a pig farm and you only have X amount of acres and you have thousands of pigs on that pig farm, that's the only way you're going to be able to raise the same amount of pigs on that farm

You're gonna have to bring in food to them

You have to keep them contained

You fatten them up and then you kill them and you have this giant lake of their their their feces

This is what is the only thing that you kind of can do to have that kind of yield on a small piece of land. Relatively small, like you have 100 acres and you have 10,000 pigs in these

******* containment facilities. You're not going to recreate that in 100 acres with like the Joel Salatin method, correct? Like if you if you're going to do regenerative farming, you're going to need some land

Diana Rodgers

You need some land, but you're also going to need to have a different supply chain

You're going to need to sell directly to consumers and not meat as a commodity

Joe Rogan

But what about meat?

As a commodity, to place like Burger King or Jack in the box, or what?

Robb Wolf

Have you do that?


They still

Robb Wolf

I mean that that's still even happens too

Diana Rodgers

Joel Joel sells to Chipotle

Joe Rogan

Yeah, yeah

Chipotle is a pretty good source, like Chipotle has

I mean, when you get like a a good beef burrito, they're a beef bowl

Pretty damn

Robb Wolf

Good, I mean in a scenario like that then I don't know how Joel handles his

But if you're selling to McDonald's, then McDonald's gets its meat from more regional source versus like this consolidated

I would source the way that happens now

Joe Rogan

Do you anticipate a time where they'll be able to?

I mean, I know there are doing factory cloned meat now

Do you think that that will be scalable?

Robb Wolf

No, like the short answer is no because it's so expensive to do it like Pete

Joe Rogan

But for now, like it used to be a really expensive to get a cell phone, but now they're

Robb Wolf

Fairly cheap, it it's true and and I'm a huge fan of Moore's law

It's a really good point, but the the thing that kind of gets missed in this is that it's so expensive to run a lab like I actually did tissue culture and you have to take all the products of industrial farming

Pull that out, process it, and then you know I've got protein and carbs and fat and these these you know jars that I put into this VAT and then inoculate it with meat cells and have to keep it the right temperature or the right humidity

I have to

Diana Rodgers

Keep pathogens off it

Robb Wolf

Keep pathogens off of it, so I've got to use antibiotics that there was actually been

A couple of good business pieces like Forbes and stuff like that

Looking at these things and and some smart systems engineers looking at this and they're like there's just no way you're going to scale this, you know, and people just

They don't realize like the grasslands in the United States or even in like Eurasia and

Whatnot, they're just

Enormous and we have these huge tracts of land

Sunlight, grass, animals it

It's a really efficient system versus again trying to pull that all under

You know a roof like this and try to grow meat at scale

If you're on like a spaceship or something, you have a closed loop deal like I could see something like that working, but as long as we have the sun and grasslands and and whatnot, there's still

A really efficient piece of that now correct me if I'm wrong on this, but as marijuana has become more legalized, people have gone outside frequently to to produce it where they can because it's just cheaper like the infrastructure of that versus like a greenhouse scenario is tends to be pretty pretty economically viable, so I think you run into those similar situations with

The lab grown meat and and the kind of butting up against the scale piece

Joe Rogan

You'd have to talk to a real marijuana farmer, but I I think there's some questions about

You know quality and how you grow it in the soil

Robb Wolf

Right, right?

Joe Rogan

You know, like the difference between the hydroponic versus growing it outside

And yeah

What other pieces of the puzzle are missing in terms of?

Like if we're if we're looking at beef and nutrients, we're looking at the carbon footprint

We're looking at all these different things in terms of like

Like a viable and sustainable food source, what other pieces are we missing?

In this discussion

Diana Rodgers

Well, I mean one thing I was going to bring up is just with white oak pastures and the impact he's had on jobs and this town like he's in the poorest

County in the country

And when, as we've lost in South Western Georgia

Joe Rogan

Where is that?

Diana Rodgers

And to see what he has done on this property is incredible

And he sells direct to consumers and so he can get a good margin

Joe Rogan

When he sells direct to consumers

Does he have like a like a farmers market type deal where they come to him?

Diana Rodgers

These ships

Joe Rogan

He ships so he does it online

So you could just like buy a side of beef, a half a cow you could visit by the pounds, cuts, steaks

Diana Rodgers

Cuts, yeah, but they also have restaurants that they supply too, but

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

What the beauty of of that and also

You know some of the stuff that Wendell Berry talks about

I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but he's a

There's a great documentary they did on him called look and see and he's an agrarian

Thought leader and he just talks

About how you know everyone from small town, you haven't really made it in the US until you've left your small town and nobody is like coming back and actually working in their small town and loving the land that they're from and making sure that that gigantic, nasty polluting pig farm doesn't happen

So that's part of it

But as we've lost all these small farms, small town America has just completely dried up

And now it's just big box everything

And so if we're able to sort of dismantle these like

For meat companies that control 80% of our meat

And somehow get it back to a more balanced system where there's more regional control over the food systems you're going to have more healthy

Small communities

Robb Wolf

This gets out in the weeds a little bit, but when people talk about AI supplanting jobs, it's creative jobs that are going to be the last things that go like even doctoring and lawyering, it is so

Kind of scripted and wrote that they you know, they predict that though being a doctor and being a lawyer could be replaced by by AI stuff in the not too distant future, but

This process of regenerative farming is a really creative endeavor like your problem solving constantly and

People have a tendency to relegate these farmers as just kind of look like inbred idiots, and they're not that smart like there's an enormous amount of information that they have to learn about their local situation and what they're doing

And again constant problem solving, so this could be one of these things that revitalizes Middle America and is a

Really long term, you know job and employment and economic engine is having people do more of this type of work

Like there was a time when more people worked in agrarian settings and then we shifted into urban centers, and maybe there's a case to be made that more people need to shift back into a a quasi agrarian setting both for the employment but also for like the quality of life and the production about food

And different things like that

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and I was just going to add two

You know the vegan dialogue works really well for like Norwegian billionaires and Bill Gates

And people that can afford it, and they've got a Whole Foods nearby where they can get their goji berries and coconut oil and all those things

But for the majority of people they want me

They want to be able to eat it, and now we've got even science so corrupted that

People are trying to pull it away from people and so it's

When you look at the nutritional ramifications of what happens when people have less animal source foods

It's not, it's it's a social justice issue

It's an equity of food equity problem

Joe Rogan

What is what was the motivation for demonising me?

Other than I mean we know about the the studies that were done, that the sugar industry funded that demonize saturated fat which is really when you know about those studies, I, I believe was in 1960s, right?

Where they were saying that saturated fat was the cause of all this heart disease and they were trying to take the blame off of sugar

They they only bribed these guys with like $50,000, which is crazy because those findings. So this is pre Internet obviously

That swept through the whole country and everybody terrified of saturated fat and people started drinking low fat milk and low fat

This and low fat, fat and

Everybody got fatter. It's it's really wild. If you look at the difference in like people that lived in 1960s and 1970s

Robb Wolf


Joe Rogan

For people today like you've seen, all those photos of people on the beach from the 1970s versus people today. It's crazy, the difference and some of that has to be attributable to diet. So with

When we were saying science has been corrupted like what what happened?

What's the motivation if they know this?

We know, I know this, like I'm I'm not an expert

How the **** do I know this that I would think that people study food science know this too and they would want to get that word out like hey this is not real like that's not what the problem is

Not saturated fat

The problem is not cholesterol

In fact cholesterol is like the building blocks

For a lot of hormones, and it's very important to you know cellular development, right?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, I mean

Bill Melinda Gates Foundation are one of the from what I understand or one of the big donors to this global burden of disease

Joe Rogan

So do you think it's a financial incentive?

Diana Rodgers

There's a I mean who benefits from meat being bad?

Big oil, because now it's not an industrial problem, it's a consumers problem, right?

Just like recycling like put it on the consumer

It's not the company making the plastic bottles, it's the consumer right?

So we've got big oil benefits

The Ultra processed food industry benefits not only because they're the ones making this junk, but also it takes the blame off

All the cereals and pasta meals and all that stuff and

Puts it on meat

So they're winning

Robb Wolf

It it in the book and I I always forget what's in the book and what's in the film

But you dug into like the history of it

Interestingly, like 7th Day Adventists, vegetarianism

They they kind of founded the dietetics profession, so it had a very strong vegetarian underpinning to it because the the religious you know

Diana Rodgers

Oh yeah

Robb Wolf

Meanings of the 7th Day Adventists, so

Joe Rogan

They founded dietetics

Diana Rodgers

And nursing

Joe Rogan

So a religion founded nursing

Robb Wolf

Well, you know, like Loma Linda University

So I mean, they're they're

They're operating within science, but it definitely had this

Vegetarian orientation to it?

Joe Rogan


Robb Wolf

Yeah yeah

Joe Rogan

And So what? Why has there in the cattle industry is huge? The beef industry is huge. There's 95% of the planet. Eats meat, right? Isn't it something high like that?

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, but the

The margins are really small though, because meat is such a commodity

It's like steak is steak is steak, but beyond burger they can

Their margins are amazing

Joe Rogan

What's new

They're new, I like

Is this an UN organization thing like did the the the beef people do they not know the existential threat to their existence?

Diana Rodgers

They don't

Robb Wolf

Really, it's weird, it's weird

Diana Rodgers

They they

Joe Rogan

Yeah, they're out there shoveling **** and oblivious

Diana Rodgers

Well, because they're not part of the coastal dialogue

Robb Wolf

Ah, and I

Diana Rodgers

That's anti meat

Robb Wolf

Some of it too is most of the players that own the meat production

They they they own like the the grain

You know the corn and and everything it because it's all consolidated, so they're like

Well, maybe we'll lose a little bit there, but we'll make

Diana Rodgers

It up here and and they're major investors in the plant based meat as well

Robb Wolf

Not really

Diana Rodgers

The meat, the large meat Packers

Joe Rogan

Just for money

Diana Rodgers

Diversify, why not?

You're going to win either way

Joe Rogan

Oh crimeny

So when you wrote this book

Did you think that there was going to be major pushback?

Did you think that you know you'd basically shored up all your arguments with with data and solid discussion?

Robb Wolf

I thought there was going to be more pushback from like the vegan side of the house and there hasn't been a huge amount

And I we did

We we tried to

We really even in the point you know like is pastured meat more nutritionally superior to

We really like like we, we had a discussion I'm like do we just lie about this?

Because it would be great

Then, like everything is consistent but

One I think the ethics are dodgy there and then two

It's a, you know

One vegan doctor goes through our work and he looks at and he's like no, there's a difference there

And if you can point out one glaring error like that, then it calls into question everything else

So we really like whether it hurt or not

We tried to be as honest with this stuff as as we could and what we have noticed is that

We kind of uniformly **** everybody off

Like almost nobody comes away reading that book and they feel just super happy and invigorated because it it it it

It filled up the buckets of, like their preconceived notions like if you were really, really, really excited about regenerative AG, we we

We sing the praises of that, but also we're not

We're kind of

Diana Rodgers

It's not black and white

Robb Wolf

It's not totally black and white

Diana Rodgers

It doesn't have to

Robb Wolf

Yeah, like we make the case that like there's all these other foods that could be nutrient upcycled

That doesn't really fit into like the grass Fed model so

Why don't we take advantage of that?

So it it's a

It's been interesting like the areas that we've had some pushback in

The most aggressive pushback is actually been the the really meet elitist kind of pastured meat scene because there are people out there that say it should be grass fed meat or nothing and it's like well that's interesting

Diana Rodgers

They're not understanding the nutritional importance and how that dialogue, grass fed or nothing ends up with New York City schools going vegan

Joe Rogan

Right, the grass fed or nothing thing that sort of

That the ideology is that is that oriented in like a nutrition standpoint, like why do they?

Diana Rodgers

No, it's

Joe Rogan

Is there a nature thing?

Diana Rodgers

An environmentalist and ethical thing

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and so they cannot tolerate the idea

That protein period is important

We don't have enough regenerative meat to feed everybody

We've got kids who, if they just got enough meat

In a disadvantaged situation, they actually might have a leg

Up so we should just be feeding them the meat that's available right now instead of waiting for the whole world to go grass fed

Joe Rogan

Now who?

Who's responsible for making meatless Monday and and no meat Friday in these school systems?

Diana Rodgers

So meatless Monday is partially funded by Beyond Burger

Joe Rogan

Oh God

Diana Rodgers

And Johns Hopkins, which is a very anti meat

Joe Rogan

Now why are they anti meat?

I'm just

Diana Rodgers

I don't know if they have some kind

Of religious background

I mean, Harvard is also

Walter Willett is very anti meat and he's funded by Barila

Joe Rogan

It's because anti anti meat equals woke right like

Diana Rodgers

Most a lot of it, yes

Joe Rogan

It's part of part of what?

The ideology is today

Diana Rodgers

And then the vegan Fridays is Mayor Adams Mayor Eric Adams

I actually have a public letter on that, so I started an organization called the Global Food Justice Alliance where I'm trying to advocate for

The inclusion of animal source foods for people, and I have a public letter out to Mayor Adams on all the points

Why this is a horrible idea

Joe Rogan

Do you know he's not really vegan?

Diana Rodgers

He has been questioned right about like

Joe Rogan

Spent pot eating fish

Diana Rodgers

And he says I have a plant based life

Joe Rogan

The restaurants

Diana Rodgers

Whenever he is questioned and he's like I want to get into the new ones and the vegan Friday thing is just I have a photograph actually that I sent over in the drop box of what the vegan Friday lunch looks like the burrito

Joe Rogan

Oh, I see

It's so sad looking oh so sad looking

School lunch looks

Like **** already, right?

Diana Rodgers

But taking meat away and and if you think about the context for these kids in New York, right?

There if you

Tell them meat is bad, they're just going to go to subway and get a a sandwich without meat on it

It's not like they're going to get

A tofu bowl somewhere

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

And so you know, the top kid foods that kids love it

Mac and cheese, burgers, pizza

And chicken Nuggets

And I would argue

The meat part of those is the best part, and so if you tell these kids meat is bad

Then they're just going to

Pull the meat parts out and just eat the fries instead and the

Joe Rogan

Coke when when a child is growing, do they have different needs per kilogram in terms of like the amount of protein that they need?

Diana Rodgers

Yes, and they really. We have major problems even in developed countries. In the US with iron deficiency, which is one of the major things you need for growth for your brain and for physical growth

Joe Rogan

So the biggest pushback that you guys got was from the agriculture or from the grass fed people

Robb Wolf

Kind of the

But what you would call the meat elitist?

We had lots of people in the pastured scene that were very gracious towards the book and thankful and everything

Joe Rogan

Moving past

Robb Wolf

But there there's kind of a weird cross section of like the health influencers that say grass fed or nothing and then also kind of the

Joe Rogan

What do?

Basing that on 'cause I've said that, I've said that because I read it 'cause I read it that it was hiring essential fatty acids is better for you

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, so they don't like it when I say that, because then that takes part of their argument away

It's an emotional decision

It's not a logical decision

Robb Wolf

I've said that I'm probably one of the people that that like released that like syphilis on a college campus, and then I did something crazy and they really thoroughly got in and vetted the science

Joe Rogan

You probably told me

Robb Wolf

And it was like it

It's not that simple like there's great ethical considerations for it

They're really, really sound environmental reasons

But when you just

But up against just that nutrition piece, it it's just not the same compelling story on meat by itself

Again, like the dairy eggs seafood, huge differences there, but just not the same

Diana Rodgers

With me and there's a lot of very large family foundations that are

Funding a lot of this grass fed stuff and they it's a very progressive

Platform that they're taking, and so to say that meat is healthy, period

It's all of a sudden I'm on the right and and like not aligning with their politics and this should be a bipartisan I

Joe Rogan


Diana Rodgers

I am totally apolitical on all this stuff, but I'm immediately tagged as

A troublemaker if I say the meat is healthy

Joe Rogan

We are

So many problems with that in this country where people get so dogmatic and they're so connected to their ideology that they they don't even question anything that goes outside of it

And this sort of healthy questioning and just reasoning and logic and just looking at data and looking at information and challenging your own personal assumptions

It's so rare

Joe Rogan

It's so rare

I mean, maybe you get one or two percent of the people

I don't know what the numbers are

Who like look at their diet and look at their life and then look

At things like this and read a book like that and go hey

Maybe I should try this, like maybe I'm like too rigid with this

This philosophy that I've adopted that plant based is the only thing that's good for the heart and protects the environment

And you want to be a good person

That's the way to go

You know it's it's just so rare

Most people they get something in their head and they just stick with that

And then there

Echo Chamber that they exist in that that reinforces and supports that, and that's all they ever talk about

Diana Rodgers

Yeah, and there's a

I mean there's a lot of very large

Interests that are pushing the plant based narrative and then they have this grassroots army of ethical

Cheerleaders that are just backing them up for free and then on our end

It's so complicated to be able to talk about the environmental piece like we have health influencers that understand the nutrition piece, but they can't

Really articulate all the environment and then you throw ethics in there and then environmental people don't fully appreciate the nutritional pieces that meat is good, period

And so you end up with nobody really advocating for me

And also there's no money in

Advocating for me

It just it just creates the headache

Joe Rogan

They've just made that idea, so it's so prevalent that meat is bad for you

Meat is bad for your heart, high cholesterol, bad for the environment

You're a bad person

Diana Rodgers

That's why we call the book sacred

Cow, because it's just this

Unquestioned truth that cows are bad

Joe Rogan

And where's the documentary?

Diana Rodgers

It's on Amazon only on Amazon

It's on iTunes and like all those like video on demand type things I couldn't even give it to Netflix

Joe Rogan

They wouldn't take it really

They probably have some funky deal with like some vegan programming

Robb Wolf

You know it's worth mentioning the folks that public we were turned down from every single publisher

Diana Rodgers

Oh yeah

No would take this book

Robb Wolf

So, so I'm like, uh, I'm I'm not a JK Rowling, but my books have done really well

I'm a, you know, more than a million copies sold of my books and everything like

I should be able to get a book deal kind of any time I want to do it, and nobody would sign off on this

And then the folks who did were the the folks that publish of

Diana Rodgers

Publishers of the

The China study

Robb Wolf

They felt yeah, really, and they happen to also be a Steven Koonin publisher too like they there

Diana Rodgers

It's a vegan publisher

Joe Rogan

We're diversifying, sort of like the meat

Robb Wolf

Business I think they're diversifying, but they also like they're pretty ethically driven

And even if in their team there were folks that were like I have some real reservations about this, but this is a story that at

Least needs to be told

Joe Rogan

What was the rejection when you guys got rejected?

Diana Rodgers

It was always a different answer from like that's when you know it's not really your fault, but like it was a different reason like I think that this is already been told

I think that this is too complicated

I think that this isn't going to sell

And then and then the weird thing is probably just COVID, but we would have made the New York Times list well, if the New York Times wanted to put us on the list

The first week we sold 7000 copies, but Amazon only shipped 2000

Robb Wolf

Well, we we we sold out the day of release and we were all over them and and this was my third book

My other books have done very well so there was something really really

Joe Rogan

So I think they were holding it back

Are you guys wearing tinfoil hats?

Robb Wolf

It kind of seems like it

Joe Rogan

Right now what's going on?

Diana Rodgers

I mean, we really thought that this was

Joe Rogan

A slam dunk, yeah?

Diana Rodgers

Four years of work

Joe Rogan

Well, let's see what we can do today

Let's pump this ************ up

Robb Wolf

It won't hurt

Joe Rogan

Well thank you guys for coming in here and your oh and so the film is there a trailer Jamie let's end with the trailer

And so everybody, let's let everybody know this book is available

You can get it right now

Right here

Sacred cow

The case for better meet Diana Rogers and Rob Wolf right there

And here's the here's the trailer we'll leave you with this

And thank you, everybody, thank you, Rob

Tell everybody how they can find you on social media

Robb Wolf

Robwolf.com you can find all my stuff from there

Joe Rogan

And Diana

Diana Rodgers

I am at sustainable dish and then the global Food justice alliance as well

Joe Rogan

Awesome, thank you guys

Thank you very much

I really appreciate it

All right?

Play this Jamie


There's a debate out there about whether or not


We should be eating meat


Red meat is now worse for us in our minds than fat ever could have been, because there are so many more reasons to avoid red meat, not only for your health but also now for the goodness of others, including not killing animals


And for the good of the planet

How you doing?


You can't blame people for being confused


They're trying to make really important moral and ethical decisions about what they should eat and how they should live


It's easy to fall for extreme simple answers


In the majority of meat produced in this country is under such abhorrent conditions


We both are


Making reactions to the same evil if you will


Just different choices of how to do it


But what if we're arguing about the wrong thing?

Joe Rogan

You look at the Midwest now in the United States

It's corn and soy and corn and soy and more corn

This massive amount of monoculture is having devastating effects on the environment

Used to be great biodiversity is gone

Robb Wolf

The agricultural revolution has been transitioned into the processed food revolution

Joe Rogan

If you want to fatten up your animals, you put

In a pen where they can't run around and get physical activity and you feed them lots of grain, humans are like that too


What if the very animals were fighting about are a key piece of fixing what's broken?

Joe Rogan

The animals are going to

Die and your only choice

Now is to do it

Well, that is the only

Choice left

Are we going to be the death that's killing everything or are we going to be the death that's part of the cycle of life that actually makes life stronger?

Those are really our only options


You know?